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Post by Kjones on Jul 8, 2014 0:37:07 GMT -5
I like the idea posted a few posts back about any gun above the semi auto mark being limited to low caps. Im also fine with 500+ being limited to 100 feet, I still have 200 feet after that to hit you. Although you are kinda screwed in the middle ground because I know I am not effective with a pistol at 100 feet.
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Post by Mosin on Jul 8, 2014 13:00:09 GMT -5
Although you are kinda screwed in the middle ground because I know I am not effective with a pistol at 100 feet. That's really the only thing I pick out of that that'll most likely screw me over. Obviously it's my choice for shooting what I shoot at, but regardless the system implied by Kneif is a slightly different version of what we already came up with, limiting anyone that isn't shooting a bolt action rifle from going past 500 fps. I'm ok with either outcome, I'd just prefer it become statewide mandated and regulated, so each field isn't different. Our game is coming up this Saturday, and we've had the previous rules with the 500+ being bolt only for the past two weeks and some change now. We'll see how it goes and adjust accordingly. Worst case I'm sure we'll have a three or four page discussion about it in our next AAR.
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Gabriel
New Member
The face of a man who has seen the Ancient Ones is forever twisted by the memory.
Posts: 455
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Post by Gabriel on Jul 8, 2014 13:43:17 GMT -5
I personally love the idea of DMRs needing to have real cap mags, but regulating and enforcing that will be nearly impossible.
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Post by Legionnaire on Jul 8, 2014 14:05:55 GMT -5
My thoughts as well, Gabriel. That being said, how do they do it across the pond, Blackhawk?
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Post by blackhawkranger on Jul 8, 2014 16:00:19 GMT -5
The thing is within airsoft we rely on people being honest enough to call a hit right? So if we trust people to do that we must be able to trust they will follow the rules laid down. If we made every rule and thought "they're gonna cheat" then no game would ever get off the ground if you see what I mean.
Don't get me wrong, I don't live in some fantasy world where people are all great and don't act the twat however rules need to in place with the expectancy people WILL follow them rather than won't.
As far as checking up on people its a simple case of picking a random mag on their rig and pulling the trigger 30 times (our real cap is considered 30 rounds regardless of platform to keep things simple). This way people can use mid caps and just hand load 30 rounds in rather than shelling out for expensive low caps etc.
Also anyone using ANY platform above 370fps has a MED and must show an ability to judge distance to ensure they don't "accidently" engage people to close. Again a simple case of how far away are those trees/car/cone etc and if they say 400meters and its actually 40meters he'll be told to jog on :-D
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Post by X on Jul 8, 2014 16:43:49 GMT -5
More to the point, we've been using the 550 FPS rule for well over a decade now with snipers using heavy weight bbs and we haven't seen issues of major injury, or even abnormally severe welts, from players being hit by sniper rifles used within the bounds of the rules. I agree with everything else you said, but I have the scar to prove that the above isn't true. I took a hit from SkyPilot at SFOD outside of what I believe to be 50 feet based on his testament, which I now trust after having really met him. At the time I didn't believe him, but I did not know him at all. I know it was him with his sniper rifle because I almost got into a fist fight with him after I tracked him down. Dumb, but true.
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Post by Kjones on Jul 9, 2014 1:15:14 GMT -5
I think most people dont know what 20 feet and 50 feet actually look like, 50 feet is pretty damn close. I think if The game refs set up a few sets of cones/flags next to the chrono station so people got to see a fresh example of what there distances looked like, we could potentially see less violation of MED.
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Post by Mosin on Jul 9, 2014 8:06:49 GMT -5
50 feet is close, but 100 feet I think is a bit excessive for me to have to resort to my pistol. At that range there is a 90% guarantee that I won't even be able to eat through the overgrowth between myself and my target, let alone being able to hit them in an open field first shot. At 55 feet if I engage you with my bolt action, and you have something that shoots closer than that (legally), you can literally charge that distance on me in less than three seconds, which is about how long it takes me to accurately acquire a target after I've shot with a bolt action, which is why I think there should be a differential between bolts and semi auto when it comes to limitations, the same way there should be between support weapons and regular rifles when it comes to full auto vs. semi only.
I personally don't think it's ever been only the FPS output that has caused so much frustration, more so the combination of a moderate to high fps combined with a ridiculous rate of fire. As I said before, majority of the time we see frustration on field is when a player yells "hit!" in a pretty loud manner, but the shooter hitting him is laying on his trigger so hard those words can't get to his ears over the sound of his own internals pushing out 30 rounds per second, which is why I don't think punishing an FPS bracket as an entirety is the solution (Although it's easy to see the bias with me owning a bolt action).
The simple fact is my mags hold 25 bbs in them, on a spring operated platform, that takes me about two to three seconds to shoot, rack, and reacquire my target. At my most outrageous not even aiming speeds I could do 1 round per second, which is why I think just like how we have those shooting over 420(410?) need to be semi only, those who shoot 500+ need to be bolt action platform only.
My personal two pennies on it.
EDIT: The main complaint of FPS in general stemmed from AEGs and P*'s having new technology to be extremely abusive of this. I'd challenge any member of MiA to point out anytime someone has complained about anyone using a spring or gas sniper rifle, since X's incident with Skypilot.
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Post by Kjones on Jul 9, 2014 8:43:58 GMT -5
I agree, FPS is not the issue, It is the FPS combined with the ROF. Like I said previously, I shoot ~530 fps and I have shot many, many people, I get very few complaints about me even on the closer shots (still > 50ft.) Most of the time people compliment me and say nice shot. On the other hand I have played next to a few guys that had semi auto setups that pushed 500 FPS. when they shot someone, they put 5 shots on them before it was all said and done. 5 shots at ~500 sucks, This is when you get the complaints.
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Post by Gimpalong on Jul 9, 2014 8:48:02 GMT -5
I personally don't think it's ever been only the FPS output that has caused so much frustration, more so the combination of a moderate to high fps combined with a ridiculous rate of fire. As I said before, majority of the time we see frustration on field is when a player yells "hit!" in a pretty loud manner, but the shooter hitting him is laying on his trigger so hard those words can't get to his ears over the sound of his own internals pushing out 30 rounds per second, which is why I don't think punishing an FPS bracket as an entirety is the solution (Although it's easy to see the bias with me owning a bolt action). Exactly. I think the primary issue that people have with Polarstars being used in a DMR role is that they are both high FPS and high ROF (even on semi-auto). I think the solution, as Mosin has already implemented, is to limit semi-auto DMR-style rifles to a lower FPS/energy output than their bolt-action counterparts. Don't penalize the bolt-action users who aren't really the problem. Alternatively, impose a longer MED on DMRs as suggested by Knief, but not on bolt-action rifles. There's no effective way to force DMR users to run low-cap or standard magazines. It's just not going to happen. I don't worry about getting whacked once from a high-powered bolt-action, but I'm certainly wary of being shot 5 or 6 times by a high-FPS DMR. Stepping back, the whole point of snipers and DMR users is to perform accurate long range shooting, not to be just a higher-powered class of rifleman.
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Post by Kjones on Jul 9, 2014 12:33:50 GMT -5
Is it possible to program polar stars to have a time limit between shots? I understand that people bought P* because they are very nice set ups and can make a hell of a DMR but the ROF gives them a bad name. If we implemented something like, anything above 450 FPS requires a 3 second time period then I think that would eliminate the issue too and still allow people to use their P* the way they want. I just do not know the possibility of the programming in a P*.
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Post by Pagan on Jul 9, 2014 12:38:30 GMT -5
Is it possible to program polar stars to have a time limit between shots? I understand that people bought P* because they are very nice set ups and can make a hell of a DMR but the ROF gives them a bad name. If we implemented something like, anything above 450 FPS requires a 3 second time period then I think that would eliminate the issue too and still allow people to use their P* the way they want. I just do not know the possibility of the programming in a P*. There isn't anything I've seen that would allow you to do exactly that. You can lock it on single round fired, with open bolt, and a low ROF and it would significantly lower the speed of shots in semi.
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Post by Stinger on Jul 9, 2014 13:38:10 GMT -5
Is it possible to program polar stars to have a time limit between shots? I understand that people bought P* because they are very nice set ups and can make a hell of a DMR but the ROF gives them a bad name. If we implemented something like, anything above 450 FPS requires a 3 second time period then I think that would eliminate the issue too and still allow people to use their P* the way they want. I just do not know the possibility of the programming in a P*. This still doesn't solve the issue of high-end AEG DMRs. Which, as has been stated, takes a lot of effort to make perform like a DMR P*, but I can tell you from experience that a dedicated 17-year-old like myself can do it. And it also isn't ridiculously expensive. Not to get off topic from P*s, but the issue is a bit more broad than I think some people realize. There are plenty of assholes who had their best-buddy tech tune an AEG up to 2.3J with unnoticeable trigger delay so that they could go and rip on people. I like Mosin's suggestion best: Make a DMR category.
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Post by Kjones on Jul 9, 2014 13:38:50 GMT -5
About how long between shots with this setup?
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Post by Knief on Jul 9, 2014 15:16:02 GMT -5
Is there really an issue here? Granted, I don't read every AAR thread, but that doesn't exactly seem to be a problem that's getting talked about a lot other than in this thread tacked on to the P* issue as a "what if" more so than in response to actual occurrences. Is there a wave of assholes with 500+ FPS DMRs laying into people excessively? Damn near every overkill experience I've seen has been from a full auto AEG shooting legally under 410 FPS. It seems like we're looking at a 100% solution for a <10% problem, and that's never a good idea.
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