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Post by Stinger on Jun 25, 2014 20:39:50 GMT -5
Exactly So how would Mosin know that I fluctuated 0.3J? If I told him I was using 0.20-gram BBs when I was really using 0.40-gram BBs, he would incorrectly calculate the joule rating and get an answer lower than what my original joule rating was at first chrono. Making me eligible to play. And the only way he would even know that it was lower than my original rating was if he had logged my original rating at first chrono. EDIT: Marshy, your edit has thoroughly confused me. Aren't we calculating kinetic energy when we give a gun a joule rating?
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Post by Marshy on Jun 25, 2014 20:43:25 GMT -5
If your joule rating is lower, you go home and never come back. That's pretty simple.
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Post by Mosin on Jun 25, 2014 20:46:34 GMT -5
Whatever weight you tell me is what we'll measure in. If you do what you said, and pass the first chrono, when I chrono you again and you claim you're still using .20g BBS but I have your energy at 1.85 now, then I'm going to call you out.
What happens if you shoot a .40g bb through a chrono that is tracking for a .20g bb? Would your energy level and fps still be the same as if you were using a .20?
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Post by Stinger on Jun 25, 2014 20:56:27 GMT -5
Whatever weight you tell me is what we'll measure in. If you do what you said, and pass the first chrono, when I chrono you again and you claim you're still using .20g BBS but I have your energy at 1.85 now, then I'm going to call you out. ...you won't have my energy at 1.85J because I told you I was using 0.20-gram BBs. Okay, so say that I initially chronographed at 400 FPS with 0.20-gram BBs, and I told you I was using 0.20-gram BBs. The joule rating you would give me would be 1.5J. When I get on the field, I switch over to 0.40-gram BBs. Due to energy creep, I'm now pumping them out at 1.8J (which is 310 FPS with a 0.40). When you spot-check me, you're going to see I'm shooting at 310 FPS. But I tell you I'm using a 0.20-gram BB. So when you calculate my joule rating, you will get 0.9J, even though I'm really pumping 1.8J. Unless you had logged what my original joule rating was, you would let me keep playing. It would be lower.
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Post by Mosin on Jun 25, 2014 20:58:38 GMT -5
Then I suppose for Polarstar users we'll have to use a small piece of strip tape and write down both joules and weight of bb. Can you get around it then?
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Post by Stinger on Jun 25, 2014 21:00:45 GMT -5
Then I suppose for Polarstar users we'll have to use a small piece of strip tape and write down both joules and weight of bb. Can you get around it then? Hmmmm...so you're saying that any change in joule rating outside of the normal fluctuation (<0.1J) is cause for removal?
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Post by Mosin on Jun 25, 2014 21:11:20 GMT -5
Probably like a 0.05 fluctuation in either direction, but yeah.
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Post by Stinger on Jun 25, 2014 21:24:02 GMT -5
Probably like a 0.05 fluctuation in either direction, but yeah. Then I can't think of any way to trick that. Checkmate, good sir That's how you'll have have to deal with Polarstars.
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Post by Puma1 on Jun 25, 2014 21:44:05 GMT -5
okay, so:
Chronoing and intending to use a .2g bb : You chrono at 400fps, or 1.5J Your range, with a .05J difference is +/- 7 FPS of variation.
With a .23g bb: You chrono at 375fps or 1.5J Your variation can be 6.5fps in either direction.
.25g bb: Chrono at 360fps or 1.5J Variation can be up to 6 fps either way.
.28g bb: Chrono at 340fps or 1.5J Variation can be up to 5.6 fps either way
.3g Chrono at 330fps or 1.5J Variation of up to 5.4 fps either way
.36g Chrono at 300fps or 1.5J Variation of up to 5 fps either way.
.40g Chrono at 285 fps or 1.5J Variation of up to 4.8 fps either way.
By the way, heres the KE equation in terms of grams and fps:
KE (J) = [1/2 (g/1000)] x [(Fps/3.28)^2]
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Post by Gunslinger on Jun 25, 2014 22:02:29 GMT -5
So is that a head scratcher question I presented ha ha ha, forgive my non educated old ass for not reading you whipper snappers fancy science lingo but did any one answer my potentially interesting/laymen question.
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Post by X on Jun 25, 2014 22:13:22 GMT -5
What if a player runs out of .30s and has to switch to .25s?
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Post by Puma1 on Jun 25, 2014 22:19:44 GMT -5
He asks to be rechronoed with the .25's.
Gunslinger, It's not an easy question to answer, no.
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Post by Gunslinger on Jun 26, 2014 2:15:52 GMT -5
Damn it!!! So I guess the other question is, can I use it on a field in Michigan using .40's?
And I feel all smart IF I asked a question that stumped you guys.
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Post by specks159 on Jun 26, 2014 2:51:08 GMT -5
While engaging the hopup will change the energy output somewhat as you are expending energy to spin the bb, it shouldn't produce a large change. The level of over or under voluming shouldn't have any effect on the hopup system.
Gunslinger, you're saying that with .20g bb's and the hopup fully off you still get significant rise out of the bb, correct? This simply means that for some reason the stock setup of your hopup still has the bucking protruding into the barrel, causing it to contact the bb and impart spin. I've had this happen on a stock gun before, something was messed up with the nub. The reason you're seeing the bb's drop more as you increase the weight is because the heavier bb's require more spin to achieve lift, and therefore require more force from the bucking. So with the hopup fully off it may still protrude into the barrel enough to lift a .20g bb, but this same amount of force won't cause enough spin to lift a .40g bb, causing it to drop. Over or under voluming has an effect on how efficiently the energy from the piston is transferred to the bb, not the amount spin provided by the hopup.
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Viper
New Member
I still have a warning level?
Posts: 289
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Post by Viper on Jun 26, 2014 9:17:59 GMT -5
On the other side of the coin isn't this creep still just as applicable for AEG's/GBB so why does it seem to be directed at P* systems? (Not being argumentative but just wondering if there's a factor I've overlooked as I said I know very little about them) Yes! It does happen with ALL weapons. It's just easier to adjust it with a P* and CAN be more prominent. Because we've established that polarstars don't fluctuate that much. If you told me your P* naturally fluctuates .3 joules I'd call you a liar. With chronographs you don't look at fps for P*, you look at joule rating, so no conversion is needed. Right.... But, I could still tell you that I'm using a lighter BB than I really am. You need the bb weight to get an "accurate" energy value. If I chrono with .2 like everyone (0.2g at 400fps = 1.48J). Now I swap to .4 on the field and you chrono me at 300 fps (0.4g at 300fps = 1.66J) Now instead of telling you I have .4 loaded, say I tell you I have .32 in there (0.32 at 300fps = 1.33J) I have now just circumvented the system knowing full on that I'm over the limits for the Joule rating. Cheaters are going to cheat... Weed them out... Never see them again... Make them chrono with what they use and make sure your FPS reading matches the spot check on the field. If the FPS reading is different, they have changed something. That's about the best way to police it. And even then it's not perfect, there are many ways around it and shitty people are going to abuse it. We need to stop pointing fingers at platforms and point the fingers back at the ass holes that are the true problem. edit: Pardon my rehash of this, I didn't see the 6th!! page when I wrote it...
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