Joule creep is a real thing with all platforms, regardless of P* or otherwise.
I just did a test last week with my Maruzen APS2, which shoots 510 FPS with a .20 gram bb, hell that still gives me 40 FPS I could potentially increase up to if I wanted, but let's take a look at what the chrono said.
Shooting with a .20, I clocked in at 2.4 joules, still legal. I then swapped out my .20's for some much heavier .43's, while the FPS declined as we all can expect (Can't remember exactly where I clocked in there at), I was now pushing out 2.9 joules of energy. Reverting back to the calculations, 2.9 joules with a .20 would be the equivalent as if I were shooting at 560 fps. In other words, although I lost actual FPS, I gained the energy amount equivalent to what would have been a 50 fps gain by using the heavier bbs.
Whether or not that makes my bolt action still legal on field is debatable, as technically I am within Michigan Airsoft guidelines still at only 510 with a .20, obviously this raises the question now of what about the other sniper platforms out there that are doing 540-550 on the nose? MiA FPS guidelines also state 10 fps leeway is given in either direction, which is why the cutoff is technically 340 fps with a .20 for arms length, but everyone knows it at 350. Same reason us snipers know that while 541+ is considered prohibited, most bolt shooters push for 550 on the nose. Factor in that we obviously shoot much heavier bbs than your standard JG M4, you've now given sniper rifle platforms the ability to push upwards of 3.4-3.5 joules of energy now, or basically what would be 600 fps+ with a .20.
If the logic of what your potential energy outcome could be with a bb weight is the deciding factor of how hot you can shoot, anything above 500 should be illegal. From a player standpoint, this means hundreds of players in Michigan now have to drop fps significantly in order to ensure that even if they're shooting 340 with a .20, if they use .30s to clear rooms, they're too hot.
You can see where this gets very messy and can be obscure, I personally don't know where we as a community take it from here. Each field host can do with their information what they please, but it was worth sharing the findings. Obviously with my Maruzen results are going to be about as much as that of a P*, whereas your average AEG won't be nearly that sharp of a rise in joule output, but still it calls to question everything we have in place presently, and if we as a community are ok with it, or if we need to change it.
Good test. Makes me wanna go test an HPA M700 I have here now as well.
I feel as if joule creep on a bolt action sniper rifle is something I would personally not really mind or care about given the low ROF possibilities with them. Sure there's technically a greater chance of injury since they shoot 100-odd fps or so faster, but most guys who stick to sniping longer than a week aren't douche-bags who are out to blatantly hurt people. (At least in my opinion) When you up the ante with any random player buying their Polar Star that can gain that similar amount of joule creep only now shooting at 20-50 rps, then I'd get pissy.
I think everyone feels the same way about it as you, as I spoke with Pagan about this as soon as I found my findings and the conclusion was "Well, you're not immature and unsafe about what you do, so it's not that big of a deal". I mainly just wanted to drive the point home with the findings that while Michigan has been allowing the technicality of up to 550 fps with a .20g bb, adding the increased weight bb means your energy creep now puts you somewhere north of 600 FPS, which probably explains how I was able to consistently hit a tree the width of a man at 100 meters with the bbs.
I personally don't engage at 60 feet in, as I can usually gat someone with the pistol at the closer range anyways. Would probably be smart to at least add the caveat that an arms length pistol/sidearm is required for anyone shooting up in that bracket. I know it's kind of common knowledge at this point, but just having it officially in the books would be a good play in my opinion.
Awesome test, Mosin. I think that, gradually, the test methods for Polarstars should be brought down to all other platforms as well, as you have just proven joule creep is significant in other platforms. However, what has been said I do agree with: A person sniping in that way is most likely not trying to abuse joule creep.
Post by blackhawkranger on Jul 6, 2014 15:59:35 GMT -5
Mosin and cqbr don't take this the wrong way but are you looking to make rules that are safe and site legal? If so then I don't think saying it's ok for bolties but not polarstars because "most guys aren't douchbags" doesn't seem very technical.
I mean polarstars are fairly expensive and they aren't exactly a beginners setup right? so the "experienced player" argument doesn't really fly with me sorry guys (plus I know plenty of experienced players who play like right bellends I have nothing else to say).
But at the end of the day the important thing is to educate site owners and players of the fps/joule relationship so they can enforce safe rules.
While the argument isn't a very good one, it just ties into the present rules that have been enforced in Michigan longer than I've been around, which is just around ten years. We've been allowing rifle platforms to get all the way up to 550.9 fps with a .20 gram bb, and nobody has done a joule creep test with heavier weight bbs on any other platform than P* until mine just recently, which is why most field hosts now have caveats on the standing limits to further enforce this with Polarstar shooters.
At the end of the day what is ultimately going to be required is a complete overhaul of the FPS system to have ratings in joules only. The problem with that is we're already adding a good bit of extra work at the chrono stations with having to do extra steps with the P* platform, now factor in that you have to write down what weight bb every player is shooting, what their FPS is, and what their joule output is, and now requiring all players that have collectively spent thousands on specific setups to fine tune their guns to shoot exactly on the nose of legal limit to now go back and get lower grade springs.
Also, with the logic of "potential joule creep" being enforced for all platforms, I really don't think anyone could even go above 500 fps with a .20, as once you do that you have potential to go above the 2.7 joule mark that is synonymous with 550 fps with a .20g.
In the sniper community in Michigan, I can safely say I can count on two hands how many people even own a platform that can push those FPS limits. It's not fair to say any one player is going to be more honorable than any other player, but just having the bolt factor shooting 500 FPS rather than a hairline trigger that is "technically semi auto" that can rip 10-20rps, pending on the shooters trigger finger, is what stands out most to me in why it should be allowed still for the guys that only strive for 75+ meter shots, and carry sidearms.
Tl;Dr - Chrono time is going to triple, and bolt actions shoot significantly less volume than hairline P* triggers on semi auto.
I'm surprised no one has suggested this yet: Why not put perminate semi auto in its own catagory from bolt actions? Put the Semi auto 'DMR' cap at say, 500 (maybe 480), and allow bolt actions to still go to the 550 limit. I mean, even with an AEG, you can still get a DMR to accurately put 5 rounds down range consistently, but if you have a spring powered sniper, your max ROF is maybe 1 RPS. And your maximum effective ROF is like 1 shot every 4-5 seconds MAX. They're 2 completely different platforms.
TLDR: Make a DMR category of weapon.
The Archangel Gabriel will sound Judgement with a blast from his trumpet. I kind of do the same thing with my rifle.
Plus not all sniper rifles are spring, I use a gas rifle that shoots ~530 fps (with duster gas) with a .20g. Obviously I do not use a .20g during game play, I use .40g, so in reality I am most likely over the joule limits if the creep is the same in my gun( probably more considering it is gas). So the question is, how do I go about changing my fps if you decide to change the rules that have been in place for 10+ years? Not like I can change a spring, The only thing I could do would be to put in a huge barrel like a 6.10 and lose all accuracy.
My sales thread on reddit, piss off proboard dicks.
Post by blackhawkranger on Jul 7, 2014 18:02:28 GMT -5
As a side question what are the exact DMR rules? For instance in the UK I know of only a very few sites that allow a separate fps limit for dmr's and their rules state: Semi ONLY - some even say 1 second between shots (to stop people whacking out to many rounds) Low caps ONLY (stop people laying down constant fire) Must have a real world counter part generally considered a marksman rifle (stop people turning up with a high fps M4 and running round like a bellend) MED (obvious safety concerns)
The idea is that with these rules in conjunction it stops potential dangerous (and stupid) play and it works to be fair.
Anyway back on topic! As for the extra chrono work I fully appreciate that, the system we use is: - Ask player for a magazine - Load a handful of .2 bb's (site provide) - Fire a few shots and visually check range (combat extreme hop to lower fps reading) - 3 x chrono readings - remove all old zip ties - attach new coloured zip tie (colour changes every game)
BALL ACHE!! but that said I don't think we've ever had a random chrono read outside our fps limits as everyone is informed that if they are randomly chrono'd and read over the limit they will be kicked off site and banned for life.
However to modify your current system you'd only need a note pad with the different fps readings written down (I posted them earlier) and to ask the player what weight bb's they are using.
Yes I guess the possibility of that player intentionally chronoing with .3's and using .43's in game but airsoft is an honour based game and that would require a pretty dedicated cheater. If they are dedicated enough to load all their mags with differnt weight bb's and straight up lie then there's not a lot you can do to combat that kind of attitude .
However I still stand that ALL systems should receive the exact same chrono/safety rules. If people have existing setups that are potentially outside the rules then you have 2 outcomes A) they've been using a dangerous setup for years and been very lucky B) being above the limits isn't as dangerous as originally thought
Food for thought though!
PS. It's a pleasant change to see a sensible airsoft forum discussion that doesn't devolve into tampon throwing and dick swinging!!!
Just so it's clear, we were aware of energy creep when we set the rules way back when. Some folks were pushing for 600 FPS and energy creep is one of the arguments we used to keep it to 550 FPS. More to the point, we've been using the 550 FPS rule for well over a decade now with snipers using heavy weight bbs and we haven't seen issues of major injury, or even abnormally severe welts, from players being hit by sniper rifles used within the bounds of the rules. At this point, you're arguing about a system that not only isn't broken, but has been effective in keeping players safe for longer than just about every member on this site has been playing the game. We obviously didn't know about P*s and the much greater effect you see from them, but we understood it pretty well in terms of AEGs and Bolt Action rifles, which is where this discussion is at anyway.
If we're really concerned about it as a community, however, there's a much easier solution than changing the FPS/Joule limit or chrono procedure. You just push back the MED on 500-550 FPS players.
*You could run some fairly simple tests to scientifically determine the range at which a 550FPS bb has the same energy as a 500FPS bb at 50 feet if you cared to, but it's probably easier to double the distance and give shooters as round of a number as possible.
No player has to change, you move the hotter guns into a safe range, and the only procedure you have to change is having another color of zip tie on hand at the chrono station. It's the easiest solution that inconveniences the fewest number of people and gives only the slightest of burdens to a very small group of people. It shouldn't slow down chrono a noticeable amount. It's also really easy to remember.
This doesn't address the P* issue, which of course is the point of the thread. But that seems mostly settled, you chrono them differently and spot check as needed.