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Post by Puma1 on Jun 23, 2014 13:38:39 GMT -5
I've been hearing an awful lot of hate for people with polarstars, and after being at several events with P*'s on the field I can see why. There are always those two or three people who use them without regard for others safety and enjoyment. To the people I've seen using them responsibly, good for you. I've been hit by an overpowered P* once, and it really hurt. I had just about 10 welts on my back (from a maybe 1/4 second burst) that bled for a large portion of the event and the next day as well. Needless to say, it would be nice to have some limitations placed on them. I've worked some equations out and I'd like to see the publics thoughts on them. This is by no means an attempt to overthrow the systems already in place by our normal hosting groups, but I'd like to see some uniformity a crossed the board. —— AEG/GBB/BA rules ——
All non P* users must Chronograph with .2g bbs
CQB/Indoor rules:
Up to 350fps with .2g bbs. - 1.14 Joules maximum.
Outdoor rules:
Arms length engagement: Up to 350fps w/ .2g bbs. - 1.14 J max
20 ft engagement: Up to 410fps w/ .2g bbs. - 1.562 J max.
50 ft engagement : BA or Semi only. Up to 550fps w/ .2g bbs. - 2.81 J max.
—— P* Rules ——
All polar star users must Chronograph with .4g bbs.
CQB/indoor rules:
Up to 250 fps with .4g bbs - 1.16 Joules maximum
Outdoor rules:
Arms length engagement: Up to 250fps w/ .4g bbs - 1.16 J max
20 ft engagement: Up to 280fps w/ .4g bbs - 1.457 J max. ( 6.7% reduction)
50 ft engagement: Semi only. Up to 350fps w/ .4g bbs - 2.28 J max. ( 18.9% joule reduction)
My general hope is that the heavier BB will eliminate Joule Creep and improve the consistency of the reading. The Joules from the standard rules are fine, considering Semi auto with any 500+ fps AEG can't possibly reach above 8 bps due to the trigger response. However, it is my experience that it is pretty easy to reach above that with a polar star. Due to this, I feel the possible Joules created by the P*'s must be much more limited. Getting hit with 10 bps by a .3g BB at 400 FPS creates 2.23 J per hit and creates a total force of 22.3 J, which is almost the absolute extent a P* would be allowed to do with this system. This is just as safe as the 8 bps at 550fps with a .2 or 2.81 J per hit or a force of 22.48 J in total. I'm definitely not saying this should be the rule. I'm looking for improvements that could be made so we have a working system. Mods, if you feel this is overstepping my bounds, I am incredibly sorry. Delete it at will.
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Post by Ogre on Jun 23, 2014 13:44:11 GMT -5
I like the idea
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Post by Pagan on Jun 23, 2014 14:17:18 GMT -5
—— P* Rules —— All polar star users must Chronograph with .4g bbs. CQB/indoor rules: Up to 250 fps with .4g bbs - 1.16 Joules maximum Outdoor rules: Arms length engagement: Up to 250fps w/ .4g bbs - 1.16 J max 20 ft engagement: Up to 280fps w/ .4g bbs - 1.457 J max. ( 6.7% reduction) 50 ft engagement: Semi only. Up to 350fps w/ .4g bbs - 2.28 J max. ( 18.9% joule reduction) This won't work. Polarstar users need to chrono with the weight bb they are going to be using. Anything else is going to skew the results. Also at 2.28j with a .40g bb is FAR too much power. Nation events like Lion Claws allow 1.55j MAX. No dmr role. The power levels you have are good, it's the fact you can't lump all p*s in the .40g bb weight to chrono. The issues we are having is not the platform, it's the asshole user who is causing the problems. In the same way someone with an Ares quick change spring, or a Systma user swapping cylinders can be used to boost a players fps to dangerous levels. I believe that as event hosts we need to pay greater attention to the the replicas being used on the field, but not just polarstars. DSG builds can be just as brutal as a polarstar when an asshole is behind the trigger. Replicas should be set to a standard, and then from there it falls on the users. Take into account the ability of the replica, and adjust for it, but don't punish the system because some jerkoff doesn't want to follow the rules.
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Post by Gimpalong on Jun 23, 2014 14:20:36 GMT -5
I really like the chart you've created. I've thought about making something similar for a while, but couldn't quite figure out how to make it into an easy to read, easy to use format. Bravo.
Couple of things.
1) Shouldn't the maximum energy output for CQB for AEGs and P*s be the same or slightly less for the P*? Currently, you're allowing 1.16 joules for P*s, but only 1.14 joules for AEGs.
2) You're making an assumption that high-FPS AEGs can't get above 8 BPS. Why is this? I'm fairly confident some of our membership could tune up an AEG to fire nearly as quickly as a P* on semi-auto at 500, 550 FPS. That said, I do think that people are far more likely to encounter high FPS P*s than to run into similarly tuned AEGs simply due to the complexity/required skill of tuning an AEG to have P* level DMR/sniper performance.
3) I'd like to see a requirement for P*s to use tournament locks or to document the output PSI at the chrono. I can easily chrono my P* and then wander off to crank my PSI up after the fact. If you document the PSI at chrono then you can re-check later on to determine whether or not any tampering has been done. Alternatively, you can zip-tie the regulator closed by using a built in lock (like on the Redline Firebase regulators) or zip-tie an aftermarket lock on, or simply zip-tie the MAP or hydro pack that the person is carrying their regulator in closed.
I've seen all three solutions. Lion Claws events document the output PSI at chrono using a tag.
4. Obviously, it's important to get P* users to chrono with a heavy BB to get a handle on the energy output that they're running in order to combat joule creep. That said, event hosts already are juggling a lot of tasks and asking them to buy .4s and to establish new chrono procedures might be difficult. I know RAGE and Suicide Kings have pre-established chrono methodologies for P*s already.
5. How did you come up with your figures for the energy reductions (6.7% and 18.9%) for outdoor play? Were those just useful benchmarks because they were at 280 FPS and 350 FPS? In other words, why 1.457 joules and 2.28 joules specifically? Why not 1.5 or 2.3 or some other amount?
6. Since ROF seems to be one of the biggest issues, I'm surprised you didn't mention a ROF cap. I have no idea how you'd enforce that.
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Post by X on Jun 23, 2014 14:27:07 GMT -5
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Post by Gimpalong on Jun 23, 2014 14:32:56 GMT -5
—— P* Rules —— All polar star users must Chronograph with .4g bbs. CQB/indoor rules: Up to 250 fps with .4g bbs - 1.16 Joules maximum Outdoor rules: Arms length engagement: Up to 250fps w/ .4g bbs - 1.16 J max 20 ft engagement: Up to 280fps w/ .4g bbs - 1.457 J max. ( 6.7% reduction) 50 ft engagement: Semi only. Up to 350fps w/ .4g bbs - 2.28 J max. ( 18.9% joule reduction) This won't work. Polarstar users need to chrono with the weight bb they are going to be using. Anything else is going to skew the results. Also at 2.28j with a .40g bb is FAR too much power. Nation events like Lion Claws allow 1.55j MAX. No dmr role. The power levels you have are good, it's the fact you can't lump all p*s in the .40g bb weight to chrono. I don't see why this wouldn't work. Energy output is energy output, right? If you set a maximum allowable energy output and require everyone to be under it then it shouldn't matter what weight BBs they use, correct? I think the reason why Puma is having people chrono using .40s is that if the maximum allowable energy output is 1.55 joules and an individual chronos at 1.55 with .20s (roughly 410 FPS) but then goes back to their car and drops in a .40 they'll chrono below 410 FPS, but will output more energy than 1.55 joules. So in order to combat energy creep, Puma is capping the maximum allowable energy for a P* at less than that of an AEG (1.55). He's setting the chrono bar lower to account for energy creep, right? The trouble is with gauging just how much energy creep a P* is truly capable of. For example, if my P* is set-up to maximize energy creep, then even if I'm only allowed to have a maximum energy output of, say 1.3 joules, but I still chrono with .20s, then I could, theoretically, still drop in a .40 and hit over that the 1.55 limit allowed for AEGs. So lowering the bar for P*s isn't going to be useful unless we're really aware of how efficiently they can be tuned to exploit joule creep. Does that make any sense? Frankly, I like a maximum of 1.55 joules for all Polarstars, but that's just me. The key is being able to control this when someone decides to chrono with .20s and fire .40s, .60s, etc... which I think is at the heart of your argument, right, Pagan? edit: My favorite joule chart:
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Post by Coletrain on Jun 23, 2014 14:39:46 GMT -5
I think we should just have them chrono with the weight bb that they're going to use and calculate the joules.
I'd also like to suggest chronoing P*'s more than once throughout the day, in order to make sure someone doesn't swap out a nozzle or crank up the PSI.
This situation makes me feel bad for the P* users who don't cheat and abuse the system. It's a shame that such an innovative platform is usually looked down upon because of the dicks that choose to abuse it's adaptability.
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Post by Gimpalong on Jun 23, 2014 14:45:30 GMT -5
Right, but I think the issue is that you can't always trust that someone is going to field the weight that they chrono with.
At LS IV, I started the day with .25s and then ended the day with .28s. I chronoed well below the 1.55 maximum joule limit with .25s, so I doubt I managed to break that 1.55 limit, but still...
It's pretty easy to require tourney locks, set a maximum energy limit, etc but how do you control what BBs someone shoots? That's tough, and requires actually trusting people.
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Post by Pagan on Jun 23, 2014 14:46:40 GMT -5
I don't see why this wouldn't work. Energy output is energy output, right? If you set a maximum allowable energy output and require everyone to be under it then it shouldn't matter what weight BBs they use, correct? I think the reason why Puma is having people chrono using .40s is that if the maximum allowable energy output is 1.55 joules and an individual chronos at 1.55 with .20s (roughly 410 FPS) but then goes back to their car and drops in a .40 they'll chrono below 410 FPS, but will output more energy than 1.55 joules. So in order to combat energy creep, Puma is capping the maximum allowable energy for a P* at less than that of an AEG (1.55). He's setting the chrono bar lower to account for energy creep, right? The trouble is with gauging just how much energy creep a P* is truly capable of. For example, if my P* is set-up to maximize energy creep, then even if I'm only allowed to have a maximum energy output of, say 1.3 joules, but I still chrono with .20s, then I could, theoretically, still drop in a .40 and hit over that the 1.55 limit allowed for AEGs. So lowering the bar for P*s isn't going to be useful unless we're really aware of how efficiently they can be tuned to exploit joule creep. Does that make any sense? It totally makes sense, but this is where I'm looking at things. Let's say I chrono at 1.14j with .40s for indoors. Now instead of upping my weight, I drop down to .20gs. The settings I used to reach 1.14j with .40s is going to be different than what I would used to reach 1.14j with .20s. I could be completely wrong. I've noticed with my P* the bb weight determines my psi and other settings, so when I change weights, I need to make the necessary adjustments.
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Post by X on Jun 23, 2014 14:55:25 GMT -5
To be completely honest I think it's a waste of time to force people to use .40s if someone is going to cheat they will find a way to cheat. In my opinion the chrono is mainly a way for players to know what they're shooting and then the host has a chance to remind them what their MED is. If I wanted to cheat I would just bring a rainbow assortment of zip ties, head back to the car and swap em out. It's really easy to cheat the system and there's A LOT of ways to do it. So I think what you should be doing is educating the person. I would let them chrono with their own BB, use the chart or whatever to figure out what their muzzle energy / MED is, tag 'em and call it a day. Then use player feedback and refs to keep an eye on everyone to see who is shooting hot and/or within MED.
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Post by Gimpalong on Jun 23, 2014 15:03:49 GMT -5
To be clear, I think Puma is suggesting that P* users chrono with .40s so that the host can get an idea, essentially, of the highest energy level that they could be putting out. Most people, even P* users, aren't shooting rounds heavier than .40s (in my admittedly limited experience).
So if I chrono with .40s and my P* is firing below whatever the maximum allowable energy level is then it's likely that when I hit the field I'll be shooting .25s, .30s or .40s and will still be under the max energy limit. On the other hand, if I chrono with .20s and am below the max allowable energy level, there's a greater likelihood that I'll hit the field firing .25s, .30s or .40s and might, as a result of energy creep, be firing above the max threshold.
More broadly, I aboslutely agree with you. People will cheat if they want to cheat.
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Post by X on Jun 23, 2014 15:18:22 GMT -5
Someone with a chrono and p* should actually test with a .2 and a .4 to see what the energy delta is. They should also compare those results with an AEG. That would be interesting.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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Post by Pagan on Jun 23, 2014 15:23:12 GMT -5
Someone with a chrono and p* should actually test with a .2 and a .4 to see what the energy delta is. They should also compare those results with an AEG. That would be interesting. Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk I can do .20s and .30s... :-)
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Post by Ogre on Jun 23, 2014 15:23:59 GMT -5
Someone with a chrono and p* should actually test with a .2 and a .4 to see what the energy delta is. They should also compare those results with an AEG. That would be interesting. Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk Well Gimp does have a Chrono..... and a P*.... and an AEG he's trying to sell. hint hint.
EDIT: Pagan beat me to posting
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Post by Gimpalong on Jun 23, 2014 15:27:06 GMT -5
I only have .28s... why, dear God, do I only have .28s? Like 6,000 of the things... Why?
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