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Post by Stinger on Jun 26, 2014 9:26:54 GMT -5
Because we've established that polarstars don't fluctuate that much. If you told me your P* naturally fluctuates .3 joules I'd call you a liar. With chronographs you don't look at fps for P*, you look at joule rating, so no conversion is needed. Right.... But, I could still tell you that I'm using a lighter BB than I really am. You need the bb weight to get an "accurate" energy value. If I chrono with .2 like everyone (0.2g at 400fps = 1.48J). Now I swap to .4 on the field and you chrono me at 300 fps (0.4g at 300fps = 1.66J) Now instead of telling you I have .4 loaded, say I tell you I have .32 in there (0.32 at 300fps = 1.33J) I have now just circumvented the system knowing full on that I'm over the limits for the Joule rating. Cheaters are going to cheat... Weed them out... Never see them again... Make them chrono with what they use and make sure your FPS reading matches the spot check on the field. If the FPS reading is different, they have changed something. That's about the best way to police it. And even then it's not perfect, there are many ways around it and shitty people are going to abuse it. We need to stop pointing fingers at platforms and point the fingers back at the ass holes that are the true problem. We seriously just came to this same conclusion five or so posts up. Mosin and his team are going to chronograph them with the BBs that they are using (or what they say they will use), calculate a joule rating from that, and then mark it on the gun tag itself (along with the stated BB weight at first chrono). When they spot check, if the person says they are using a different BB weight than is marked, they're out. If they say they are using the same BB weight as marked, but their recaluclated joule rating comes out to be more than 0.05J different from what was marked, they're out. There is no way around that short of reloading to what you originally chrono'd with before you get spot checked, and the mods can easily watch for that before they spot check someone.
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Viper
New Member
I still have a warning level?
Posts: 289
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Post by Viper on Jun 26, 2014 9:33:57 GMT -5
We seriously just came to this same conclusion five or so posts up. Calm your tits there chief. I didn't see the 500th page of this thread. People need to realize that the way we do things isn't broken, they need a tweek. And it's everyone, not just the dreaded Polarstar. This "magical" phenomenon happens with ALL guns that aren't air equalized.
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Post by Stinger on Jun 26, 2014 9:41:40 GMT -5
We seriously just came to this same conclusion five or so posts up. Calm your tits there chief. I didn't see the 500th page of this thread. Shouldn't you read before posting? That's generally what I've been told around here. Which is why I have previously suggested that we chronograph all guns in this same way. However, event moderates probably believe that this is too much work. Like I have said: In an ideal world, you chronograph all guns (AEGs, gas, HPA, spring, EVERYTHING) using 0.40-gram BBs, calculate joule rating, log that rating on the gun tag, and then spot check dynamic ("dynamic" meaning easily adjustable, such as HPA, Systema PTW, etc.) guns later on, or any guns that anyone complains about. That prevents cheating through energy creep, cheating through tweaking the guns themselves, and it makes it fair across the board. EDIT: Also, when you spot check them, make them reload to your 0.40-gram BBs.
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Post by Mosin on Jun 26, 2014 11:10:08 GMT -5
Show me an AEG test that can joule creep as much as .40 joules off bb weight alone and we'll do it for every gun that fires a projectile on field.
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Post by Stinger on Jun 26, 2014 11:12:54 GMT -5
Show me an AEG test that can joule creep as much as .40 joules off bb weight alone and we'll do it for every gun that fires a projectile on field. It won't. Like I said, nobody wants to actually follow my suggestion because it's more work than it is worth. That was in "an ideal world," simply to make it fair an make P* users stop complaining that we don't chrono them like everyone else. Just continue as planned, I said that to satisfy the P* people that complain about unfairness.
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Post by Gunslinger on Jun 26, 2014 11:45:44 GMT -5
The honest and simple way to stop this debate, right here, right now is simple as has been stated over and over and over again. Listen to players who are known for being stand up guys, they say a guy is being suspicious, baby sit the clown/s. That's mostly what refs are on the field for any way. Once it is obvious those stand up guys are right deal with the suspicious players accordingly.
I loved airsoft locally when I first started. Almost all games were quite a bit more restricted to age etc. (I know I keep beating that horse, but players then earnered their way onto a field). I also know as things progress they change to acomidate that progression. But it just seamed games were a bit more that "rec" EVERY weekend. There was usually some one throwing a big event minimally once a month and then maybe a couple small games here and there. Made guys hunger for it, value it and fucking respect the sport.
Some of the guys here who are out there on the fields now that are under let's say five yaears of playing or who are arm chair airsofting (guilty) go back through some of the oldest events and after action reports and see what guys would talk about being the positives and negatives of games. That could be a starting point for quite a few discussions.
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Post by Stinger on Jun 26, 2014 12:01:02 GMT -5
I have gone back and read a lot from "the old days." But it really doesn't make me feel any different. MiA is new to me and thus the way it is now seems normal. I see nothing wrong.
Regardless, I think that Mosin and the other event moderators know how to handle their own events, and it's pointless to continue this thread. I hope at the very least Mosin will use the joule logging method that he came up with, as that is unable to be cheated.
And as for trying to make it fair across the board for all platforms: Different platforms need different sets of rules and guidelines. As I have said, in an ideal world, you could equalize them all. But it takes too much effort and resources to do that now.
This thread needs to be locked.
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Post by Puma1 on Jun 26, 2014 13:41:22 GMT -5
And as for trying to make it fair across the board for all platforms: Different platforms need different sets of rules and guidelines. As I have said, in an ideal world, you could equalize them all. But it takes too much effort and resources to do that now. This thread needs to be locked. If you want something to change, you need to put in the effort and actually do something. It's not like I pulled the first post of this thread out of my ass in 5 minutes. I thought about a problem and set out to solve it. Please don't be the guy that complains about something being unfair but does nothing to solve it. If the mods want to lock this discussion, so be it. I think Mosin has created a working system to deal with p*'s and the like. I still feel there is a better option, but it's not some quick math equation. It's complicated..
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Post by Gunslinger on Jun 26, 2014 16:07:18 GMT -5
I wasn't saying any thing to the effect of "it needs to be like the old days" more to the effect people were held to a different standard and so were event hosts. Game types were also less open to any one who had a way to get to a game and mil sim was more than " you guys go that way and the rest go that way" that is exactly why I got out of paintball.
I was more saying people who used to play got into airsoft for the military style and simulated tactical game play much more than fields either have the time to organize or consern to do over their "bottom lines". It's gotten vastly over populated with people who have more money than tact. And the people like me who played for the honor of the game have stepped away from local play because there are simply too many people who cheat because of the over abundance of bodies on the field to rake in the all mighty dollar.
Agreed it is what it is and as the sport becomes more main stream more people will become involved with it. I will simply stick to the higher end games that have more people who understand what we do and why.
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Post by Stinger on Jun 26, 2014 16:48:27 GMT -5
And as for trying to make it fair across the board for all platforms: Different platforms need different sets of rules and guidelines. As I have said, in an ideal world, you could equalize them all. But it takes too much effort and resources to do that now. This thread needs to be locked. Please don't be the guy that complains about something being unfair but does nothing to solve it. Have you read the previous posts? I am quite literally the opposite.
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Crusade
New Member
I am outie! I am outie! -Android
Posts: 120
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Post by Crusade on Jun 26, 2014 18:37:53 GMT -5
I think it is an idea... I couldn't come up with anything better, don't we all hate those d-bagy P*s who think they are using a competition series gun... shame to them.
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Post by Ogre on Jun 26, 2014 19:25:28 GMT -5
Some of the kindest players I've met use P*'s. Don't categorize them as "d bag players"
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Post by Stinger on Jun 26, 2014 20:26:03 GMT -5
I think it is an idea... I couldn't come up with anything better, don't we all hate those d-bagy P*s who think they are using a competition series gun... shame to them. Crusade...just no. Bad idea. Leave Come back when you're older.
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Post by blackhawkranger on Jun 29, 2014 0:28:58 GMT -5
So there I was driving home after a tedious 12 hour shift and I got thinking about this whole thing...
Now if i'm correct there's a potential downside to chronoing with heavyweight bb's;
So due to "over voluming" the barrel with air on .2's it makes use of that air when propelling heavy .4's.
Right we all agree on that however if your setup is "under volumed" for .4's they'll start decelerating before the muzzle however it will still give a legit, well under, fps/joule reading right?
Now if that setup is fine tuned for .25's isn't they're now accelerating right up until the muzzle and potentially be over the agreed fps/joule limit?
I was really thinking this could be mostly applicable to short stroked AEG's however the same would be true in P*'s.
Anyway just a thought but perhaps I'm talking bollocks as I am quite tired I have nothing else to say
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Post by specks159 on Jun 29, 2014 1:09:29 GMT -5
Hmm...never thought about that, good catch.
As far as I know nobody has ever really experimented with how many joules you'd lose from deceleration in an undervolumed setup. I think it is worth looking into, as what you described could certainly happen, but I have no idea how large of a change in joules one could see. I believe it would be less prominent than joule creep due to increasing bb weight, but it might still be large enough of a difference to be significant.
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