littlecyclone
New Member
Full Auto Heroes:Always outnumbered, never outgunned. SCAR-H/L85/M4/SR25/MP5/G18/M79
Posts: 493
|
Post by littlecyclone on Feb 12, 2009 10:58:16 GMT -5
Don't know what you plan to use to propel the nerf football, but anything outside of propane will not be allowed. We even decided that C02 was too powerful of a propellant to be used. Also, EL, while the MilsimLabs guy has a decent looking product... there's no reason not to use a nerf football. They're used around the country, maybe even world, as "rockets" or "mortars" and really don't post any threat so long as they aren't launched at a ridiculously high speed. What about using the aforementioned Springs for propellant, or tennis balls as ammunition?
|
|
|
Post by Relarz on Feb 12, 2009 11:37:31 GMT -5
I'm just gonna stick with the Milsim Labs stuff. That seems to be the best solution so far.
|
|
|
Post by Shadow (314) on Feb 12, 2009 12:50:37 GMT -5
I have a working model right now, I jsut need more time to build and test it. How does this sound? A toilet paper role with a round Styrofoam tip that is shaped like a mushroom so that if you push the top down(like an impact) it compresses into the tube about an inch. Inside the tube is a thin plastic disk connected to the inner wall. On top the disk there is a gator clip attached to the side. Much like ones used for electrical wiring. There is a small hole in the middle of the disk. Below and attached to the underside of the disk is a spring. Attached to the other end of the spring is a cardboard or thin plastic plunger. A wire (electrical wire probably) is attached to the top (facing the tip) and ran through the middle of the spring, through the hole, then tied to a small bead. When the spring is compressed, the wire has slack, that slack is pull through the hole, and the bead is placed in the jaws of the gator clip. It is then set. When the round impacts the ground (tip first) the foam tip compresses into the tube, pushing and releasing the clip, releasing the wire, letting go of the compressed spring. There could be fins along the outer rear of the tube and a small paper disk at the end of the tube (exhaust end) to keep the payload in during flight. Also, with this design, the payload would only be projected out the rear. If we were to attack a cone-shaped object about an inch or two from behind the rear of the exhaust, it could be used to delfect some of the payload in a full 360 direction. As of now, I'm thinking a spring that size and that light may not be enough to fire BBs, but talc powder is still an option. And a nice little poof on impact could be a lot of fun! I'm thinking (but not yet tested, don't claw at my throat) That it may be light enough, and the compression stage will increase total energy, but prolong the time of impact so it will cause less damage. Much like how a seat belt works by breaking the impact into sections, then spreading the force out over time. I know this isn't flawless, but I think it could be a possible stepping stone in the right direction. I'd like to hear if someone can add to this.
|
|
|
Post by Ghast on Feb 12, 2009 16:11:44 GMT -5
Whats astonishing is I can actually imagine that exactly as you said it. However I'm still confused on the spring bit, could you rephrase that?
|
|
|
Post by Shadow (314) on Feb 12, 2009 17:59:37 GMT -5
Top of the disk is a gator clip off to the side so that the jaws face toward a hole in the middle of the disk. Other side (rear) there is a spring attached to the disk, and a plunger attached to the spring so that when it fires, the plunger doesn't go flying out also. Attached to the plunger on the same side that the spring is attached is a wire. This wire runs back up through the middle fo the spring, through the hole in the disk, and is attached to a bead at the end. When you compress the spring, the wire gives slack enough to place the bead within the jaws of the clip. When the foam tip hits down on the clip, it releases and the wire allows the spring to decompress and fire. Does that help? I'm thinking there should be a more rigid ring inside the foam tip so that the more rigid material hits the lever of the clip to release it. It wouldn't be incredibly reliable, but then again, real mortars do get duds... It could be re-usable once or twice (more if you make the tube out of thin plastic. But toilet paper roles are bio-degradable)
|
|
|
Post by Phantom G3 on Feb 13, 2009 19:36:37 GMT -5
That is actually a good idea in my opinion, nice job! If I can see you at one of our team games hopefully here soon (maybe about a month from now), you can show us it, by then you will probabably perfected it by then and we can see it!
Good luck.
|
|
|
Post by redknight on Feb 14, 2009 4:16:58 GMT -5
Sorry, but you won't be "legally" launching a nerf football 300 yards. By legally, I mean legal by MiA standards. That would harness entirely too much force behind it and definitely cause major damage if hit at close range. 100-120 yards is about what you can expect out of a nerf football, and with that propulsion, they really do not travel at enough speed to cause damage. I know this from personal experience. Also, no use of a primer will ever be remotely allowed in a game. Entirely too dangerous. Say it makes direct contact with a player and explodes on them. Not cool. Don't know what you plan to use to propel the nerf football, but anything outside of propane will not be allowed. We even decided that C02 was too powerful of a propellant to be used. Also, EL, while the MilsimLabs guy has a decent looking product... there's no reason not to use a nerf football. They're used around the country, maybe even world, as "rockets" or "mortars" and really don't post any threat so long as they aren't launched at a ridiculously high speed. Shadow, reading through this thread, I can't help but notice that you just can't seem to accept that fragmentation rounds will simply be unacceptable. If safety wasn't an issue, a lot of things could be used, for instance, cqbrs complete joke about launching a Tornado grenade... he was *entirely* joking, and you guys went way too far with it. What I don't think you realize is that you're trying to do something that has been done before... and is not currently used because it was entirely ineffective. It only works in open fields... not if there are any trees at all, and even then, is quite inaccurate. I say this because I built one from an inert LAW and then used it, realized how pointless it was, and then sold it. We have had lots of reports of folks injured by AEGs used at too close of range, not to mention Gas rifle, but they don't get banned (except for the 8mm guns) I would think this is because most people don't do dumb things like direct fire with heavy weapons when they are intended for indirect fire. I mean seriously, let's see...its a mortar...it shoots up over you, way over you, not at you. Tex, consider that we do have minimum engagement ranges for all weapons, and by virtue of the fact that it would shoot up and expend most of its energy on the climb, after the apex it wouldn't be a threat to anyone. I do understand your point, but misuse is misuse, anyone using such a launcher would have to obey certain predefined imutable safety rules, just like every other rule we have, or else disaster would probably happen, like getting an 8mm BB in the teeth >.< ( I can't even imagine how much that hurt) We have the math worked out, from experience with "tater-cannons", and "pumpkin-chuckers" the energy going out the end is ridiculous, but it drops off dramatically over a relatively short distance, and the terminal velocity for the football-projectile is so low that, once the descent begins after apex, it isn't worth mentioning ( you generate greater velocity when you throw it). the primer is inside..deep inside, you cant hope to get at it with out disassembling the thing. its not open to the air like the combustion taking place on a flashbang or smoke grenade, it's all internal, but I do understand your concern, I just think you don't have an adequate understanding of our plan. ( I can try to post them, I suppose, if anyone wants to see them) Propellant: don't worry, we have lots of ways to propel a nerf foolball well over 300 yards...and its safer than you would imagine...considering that we are playing a shooting sport where we target one another with high velocity BBs, its probably just as safe since most of our energy is used up before the thing starts to come down. None the less, I am curious about the design that you used and sold. Do you have plans or pics? Shadow, when you meet the rest of our team, you and DEXTER can kick around in his machine shop and build all that crazy stuff. It sounds like you guys will get along famously! By the way, look at my new negative Karma level, courtesy of my own personal internet stalker! Remember when I warned you about him? OK Back on topic, I like the idea of the shower from overhead, but I disagree with a parachute because if the chute should fail to deploy, we would have a projectile with potentially lethal velocity coming down possibly on someone. What about making shells that have soft foam bodies? on the exterior just incase of failed chute deployment? I keep thinking of these arrows for shooting at airborne targets such as birds.... I believe they are called "flew-flews" ,made with lots of extra fletching all around them to rapidly decellerate them once they travel a relatively short distance..... wondering if we could rig a payload with something like that. It [hopefully] would just make a ton of drag to slow down and stablize the object, also hopefully promoting a "soft" landing. Got any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Shadow (314) on Feb 14, 2009 11:50:53 GMT -5
I agree that the parachute should NOT be a main device for safety. Maybe add to the funtion, but it's not reliable enough to use alone. I agree with the soft foam idea, that's why the one IU'm making will have a foam tip, and possibly that tip will extend down the body to also give it a real mortar teardrop shape and increase saftey at the same time. As far as minimum distance goes, maybe we can establish that a mortar team must have a vacant "mortar pit" before launching. Anything within 20 feet if the tube and you can't fire. Also, what if you extended the barrel, or set up a metal fence/shroud around the exhaust of the tube so that it goes above people's heads so you couldn't hit someone even if you tried? Much like the shroud around a prop for a fan-boat. Chicken wire could do the trick. That way the launcher could be in two or more pieces and have to be assembled/disassembled before and after use. Just some ideas, but I'm glad we're moving forward with ideas. As far as the fletchings go, I do archery hunting and I do use those arrows you spoke of. (not what I call them, but whatever) I think if we built normal sized fins on the rear, but curved them so that it causes the round to spin in flight, that would not only increase rear drag, but stabilize the round during trajectory. Rifling it in essence.
|
|
|
Post by redknight on Feb 14, 2009 16:23:15 GMT -5
Oh don't worry, we don't make a flash when it fires.... all the evil happens inside the pipe As for the barrel length, I think Tex is referring to the launcher being used for direct fire (like a cannon), and that would be hazardous as hell. I actually have a way to disable the firing device(a tilt switch) if the gun is lowered to a position where it could strike someone with direct fire. I would like to think [and hope] that no one is stupid enough to stick their face in front of the barrel when it is fired >.<
|
|
|
Post by Tex on Feb 14, 2009 22:05:59 GMT -5
Sorry, absolutely no pyrotechnics are allowed on the field, it's been discussed before, but it's not allowed in Michigan, it's something all the field owners have pretty much agreed upon. I agree that it wouldn't pose much of a danger, but there is a very minimal chance that something could go wrong.
And there are engagement ranges for higher powered AEG's and GBB's which are designed to protect people. Granted not everyone always follows those engagement rules, but I've yet to see anyone purposely break the rules without being dealt with by the field owners. Safety is something we take very seriously because all it takes is one very bad injury to put a bad spin on airsoft, or even cause a field to go under because of some sort of lawsuit.
There is a limit on the propulsion of the nerf footballs, etc, and it was decided upon and agreed that propane, and green gas moscart shells are pretty much the limit, anything else this has too much force and risks danger to people in the field.
|
|
|
Post by Shadow (314) on Feb 14, 2009 22:22:26 GMT -5
Ok, we'll have to launch a device while keeping within agreed safety standards. I was actually thinking a 40 mm PVC tube with the bottom end caped with slots running down both sides lengthwise of the barrel. A heavy spring would be placed withing the tube, and a plunger on top of that. Attached to both sides of the plunger would be metal rods that would extend out of the slots. You would have to place a knee of the tube, and with both arms, pull the spring untill it is compressed. Then another player (Two+ man mortar team) would insert a spike/nail into a hole in the PVC to keep the spring down. You load the tube, and pull the nail out to release the spring. There could be several holes drilled into t he tube for variable ranges. All the way down for maximum distance, further up for shorter range ect. Each range could be marked to increase accuracy. Cheap, easy, re-usable, no pyro, and doesn't take gas. The hard part would be to find a spring strong enough to launch some distance.
|
|
littlecyclone
New Member
Full Auto Heroes:Always outnumbered, never outgunned. SCAR-H/L85/M4/SR25/MP5/G18/M79
Posts: 493
|
Post by littlecyclone on Feb 15, 2009 1:22:16 GMT -5
The hard part would be to find a spring strong enough to launch some distance. Or maybe a set of springs?
|
|
|
Post by redknight on Feb 15, 2009 1:52:32 GMT -5
Well, if thats the rules, we will just use it on our field with a disclaimer posted. People cry already when guys bring out miniguns and similar heavy weapons that give a vast advantage. Rules change with circumstances or we find ourselves obsolete. I remember when people first started using cattle markers for fun... then BOOM! painball was born. I think that if such systems as we are producing are play tested, people will agree that they are not anymore dangerous than high powered AEGs. Until then, we will just keep them on our field and shoot footballs into low orbit ;D Maybe we could use a waterballoon launcher in a tube with a trigger release. We could just use a manual winch to crank back a really powerful rubberband powered device similar to cocking an old fashioned crossbow. Oh, by the way, on the thought of pyrotechnic devices, it came to my attention, that someone (who wont be named) uses a modified shotgun (real steel) loaded with shells containing only a primer and BBs. First, I have to say that I have not seen this, but have been told about it by several people, so I am going to ask if it is true. Second, I have to say that if it is, doesn't that qualify as pyrotechnics? Besides that rumor, what about the smoke grenades and flashes used on several fields? ???they all count as pyrotechnics due to the propellant/fuel burned.
|
|
|
Post by Ghast on Feb 15, 2009 2:58:33 GMT -5
Yes it's true, yes it's pyro, and yes it has been banned from events.
|
|
|
Post by redknight on Feb 15, 2009 4:13:47 GMT -5
So you mean some idiot really was carrying a real gun loaded with blanks? OMG! thats asking for a disaster. don't they know that primers throw tiny bits of metal?!?!? >.< (hurts to think about that)
Ok, back on topic. So I guess they are all banned then? What type of smoke is used then? There has to be something.
|
|