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Post by Ghast on Jul 16, 2008 1:58:42 GMT -5
He's talking about having everyone, regardless of ROF capabilies would have to downgrade their guns to below 380 FPS. Considering I just modded my selector plate to semi-auto only, and added a scope to my gun (435 fps), this would put me out in the cold. I'm not about to go switch out a spring because cry baby here can't take a little pain. I'm perfectly happy with the engagement limit (50 ft) that I have and I also have a sidearm (Mac-11) for those close encounters. This would undoubtedly irritate other snipers as well who have sunk $1,500 or more into their rifles already.
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Post by Chaos (T.F.I. SAW Gunner) on Jul 16, 2008 8:04:24 GMT -5
Cry Baby? Read the forums man, I haven't said crap about hot guns yet, a lot of other people have and a lot of that crap was directed against my team. I offer a simple suggestion to fix the problem, a suggestion that's used in airsoft all over this country because it's common friggen sense, and it works. As long as there's the option of shooting hot it WILL be done. This has been proven time and time again.
I also said AUTOMATICS should be regulated, if you fixed your selector plate then you’re not an automatic are you? Maybe you should read the post before throwing your insults. I see a lot of crying on this forum but very few people ever offer a way to fix these problems. Help with the solution or shut up.
SFOD field rocks, they put a lot of work into it, but the fact is it is small and there are kids on it half of the time. Every single game people get hurt. There are pictures of people with bleeding welts after every op. One of these days some twelve year old kid is going to get lit up, and there will be a lawsuit. Waivers don't matter, when a minor gets hurt it's a bad thing. At that point we will likely lose the best field we have in this area. Not to mention the bad press. This sport doesn't need that either. You know there are politicians in the Michigan government that would love to put stricter regulations on our sport. Why give them more ammo? So you go on crying because you have to change a spring. Maybe if you were a better player you could get closer to your targets and you wouldn't need to shoot that hot. If you have a better suggestions then let’s hear it. I’m mature enough not to go to name calling because you have an idea.
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Post by Jumprefusal on Jul 16, 2008 8:11:45 GMT -5
I'm not about to go switch out a spring because cry baby here can't take a little pain. You know attacking and calling other members derogatory names is grounds for a ban. He did't do a thing wrong, see you in a week.
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Post by Chaseman on Jul 16, 2008 8:41:51 GMT -5
Japan is totally downgraded their aeg guns. Ghast you have made your gun permanently semi, so that's fine. I don't think the problem is with the snipers. They are talking about full auto aegs over 380 FPS. I never saw anybody cry even when the wounds were obviously very painful. Losing a tooth will make your parents cry, because of the dentist bill. My daughter just had one wisdom tooth taking out and it cost me $850.00 My question is why do you feel the need for 435fps If your not a sniper? Not trying to be a smart ass just wondering what your thinking. One thing I think might be good at the events is a range with the different ranges limits marked off, so people can see what 20 ft and 50 ft real is. BTW guys arms length doesn't mean the barrel one inch form the persons skin. It means... Barrel is one arms length from the target translated to 2.5 - 3 ft from somebody. There was some confusion at the last Op on this in a blind fire case. NO BLIND FIRE!!! Sticking your gun through a crack and spraying the room is dangerous and dumb. PLEASE DON'T DO IT!!!! 3 days after the event through thick bdu's and a t-shirt. BTW nothing compared to the two to the face old boy got. This pic doesn't do it justice cell phone cam.
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SkyPilot
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Post by SkyPilot on Jul 16, 2008 9:13:50 GMT -5
Corey and I have talked in the past about this, last year hot guns were a serious issue. Our talk was to limit all AEG's to 350fps max. Due to the problems with hot guns in the city and people disrespecting their engagement limits and injuries occurring.
Should this rule at SFOD become enforced, you'll have three simple options. 1. Downgrade the AEG to 350. 2. Use a lower FPS AEG. or 3. Stay home.
Ask yourself, do you really need a AEG over 350? Especially at SFOD?? I have a stock Echo1 MP5 that shoot 320fps all day, and frankly it's more than enough. If you can't hit them, then move up!
I've said this before. Safety in the sport should be everyone's first concern. If you don't believe safety is important you shouldn't be playing.
NOW LETS END THIS BITCHING! Engagement limits isn't the fault of the organizers it's the fault of the players. It's up to the player who's shot within the engagement limits to say something. Don't say something 4 or 12 hours later, report it immediately!
I believe there were enough 'refs' over the weekend that something could have been said when it happened. If your bitching about it now, then it's your own damn fault!
If you reported a hot shooter to a SFOD Staff when it happened (not 3 hours later) and nothing happened, then that's different. But if you didn't say anything, then blame yourself.
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Post by conscript ☭ on Jul 16, 2008 11:54:09 GMT -5
The only gun I own that shoots over 350 is my MAK-90 and I'm also working on a JG dragunov, but these are only marksman weapons and will not be shooting over 410. I see no reason to shoot over 350 unless you are trying to play the marksman/sniper role, any shock infantry/rifleman is useless if he can not engage in close quarters in my opinion.
Regarding the SFOD field, there have been problems with people not following their engagements within the city. It's just too tempting for someone with a hot gun following their squad to get drawn into the city and then beginning to engage in it. But the most serious cases of engaging in the city with hot weapons occurs when a team is forced to spawn/hold the city. I do believe some blackwater players had hot guns, most of the time they were in the city because that's where their spawn was, I have no doubt that those black water members with hot weapons engaged targets in the city at some point through out the day. Also, no offense connors because you chronoed it, I do not think my MAK-90 was chronoed right. That gun should have at least been shooting 380 and it was last chronoed at 400, but yet I only saw it going 300 on your chrono and you gave me a arms length engagement limit. This happened at gold rush 2 and I believe the guy operating it wasn't holding it right and wasn't shooting straight through the chrono. I had him do it again with me operating the gun and sure enough it was 400 fps. I will admit, I didn't say anything this time because I had planned to only engage over 20 feet away and I had you chrono 4 of my guns, so if anything happened I would have been the one in trouble. But still, the chrono procedure is not always perfect, and other players may also not have been chronoed correctly.
Also at Red Dawn, I became a victim of some one not following their engagement limits during the 300 game when SFOD and another hand picked team had to hold the city against us. I had a hot gun so I stayed out of the city and picked people off from the swamp line when someone popped up from a building 10 feet away and shot me in the nose, it wasn't just a normal bb strike with maybe a bloody welt, it actually left a scar on my nose. I think the kid didn't know his exact distance to me before he popped up and shot, but if he had a hot gun he shouldn't have been in the city in the first place let alone made a defender of it in a game where he would have to inevitably engage targets within the city. Now I don't mind it because I still have my teeth and my eyes, but it is dangerous to 'force' a person with a hot weapon into that sort of position where they must be in the city.
So my major points: we need to be more careful about the chrono and I don't think we should be having people with hot guns in the city being put in a situation where they may inevitability engage within their limits.
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Post by gifted on Jul 16, 2008 15:20:02 GMT -5
You know I think that it really funny how all of this whinning is going on now. I was part of Black water and proud to say I am part of Task Force: Iris. During and after the game on Saturday I went up to about a dozen different people from both sides and asked if they were haveing fun and to just talk to them. Everyone that I talked to had no gripes or complaints and said that they were having fun. With that in mind I read what is being posted and it just shows the level of immaturity that is playing this game in Michigan. All I have been hearing for the most part is people complaining about getting hit with hot guns and getting screwed over by Blackwater. Every single one of us got hit with hot guns. I still have bruises and welts all over my body from it. Complaining does nothing for it. Unfortunatly when you play this game that is a risk you take. Im not saying that it doesnt suck but it happens. People not calling their hits, again it sucks but it will happen for as long as people play this sport. If they are not calling their hits continue to shoot them until they do or go talk to a ref at that point. But as I believe Skypilot arleady said, telling someone or complaining about it 3 hours to 3 days after solves absolutly nothing.
CAPT. Chaseman, I commend you for your professionalism on and off the field. I hope you can be an inspiration to others around you. Thank you to all who kept your head and your cool.
As per the Black water incident. 1. The reaon why their were so many of us was because all of our team showed up. If all of the people from the other teams were there there wouldn't be this roblem because they were expecting 200+ people. Do not get mad at us when not everyone shows up. 2. The incident about the yelling at the mash point: Every airsoft game I have ever attended there has always been a lot of yelling, it is again part of the game. If you can't handle it, then you should be playing golf. 3. The whole "The city is restricted" thing. Blackwater was actually surprised that worked. Both teams outnumbered at least 2 to 1. If you guys wanted the city that bad, you should have taken it away from us. We did not think at all that would have worked.
Yes there were some things that were not right about the whole senario but with any new thing there will always be bugs to work out. SFOD did a great job and gambled with this idea. It did not work out 100% as planned but it still worked. I hope that no body got to offended about what I said and if you did, then please PM me and we will discuss this like adults.
Oh yea, here is the last bit of my rant and then I am done. IT IS JUST A GAME!!! I know it sucks when people cheat and it hurts getting shot at close range. But every single person walked away from that field on their own accord. That is what is important. I am sorry for those who didn't have fun, but nobody is to blame for that but yourselves. No one was forcing you to be there and no body was forcing you to play.
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Red Robin
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Post by Red Robin on Jul 16, 2008 15:32:42 GMT -5
Getting shot with a hot gun kinda adds to the realism to me, it sometimes makes you scared for getting shot which is what Real War feels like(I am not saying that getting shot with a hot gun is anything compared to getting shot with a real gun). 350-400 isn't that bad unless you get shot bare(on your hand) or at very close ranges. If I was afraid of getting shot, I would be playing Nerf gun.
I think I heard this from somebody that his friend's Marine or Army unit was training with paintballs but bare back, just to add a little more realism to the training. It is very hard to shoot with a low fps gun in the tree areas of SFOD, as it is way too easy for a leaf to block it, also, shooting with a low fps gun really eliminates a lot of fun from this game as often your opponent do not feel the hit.
I think as long as the rules with 350+ guns entering the city is stricter, the rules we have as of right now works just fine.
EDIT: If you are really afraid of getting hit in the face, just wear some kind of face protection. I was hit in the back with a REALLY hot gun, it hurt like a bitch but did not leave a bruise as I had my ACU for protection.
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Post by Connors on Jul 16, 2008 15:57:57 GMT -5
Seriously guys, enagement distances are in place to allow for hotter weapons, AEG's included. Now, Untill the MIA rules for fps change, our's will stay as is, as far as fps and engagments are.
Personally, If you make all AEG's requried to be 350 and under, it completely depletes the purpse of a markman who doesn't want to drop a grand into a spring rifle, like me. My m14 is in the 430's, so does that menas b/c someone has a complaint about power in AEG's that we should be dropping all fps limits to comply. I'm talking ONE person out of the hundreds who play regularly?
After personally talking to Corey about this yesterday when I went to pick up my car, we are still considering 2 things: One, doesn't pertain to fps, but more to ages-Age restriction. Though the problems have been a lot less in the last 2 events, so we're hoping that this is not going to be needed. Second, is an fps restriction on the youth. If you're 16 or younger, 350 will be the limit. These are not ruels yet, but they have had their share of discussion in team meetings, so they are one thing that could be in the future of SFOD. But for now, things are going to stay just the way they are.
Everyone, please take this fps discussion crap out of this thread and make a new one for it if you soo chose to debate the topic. Or you can just drop it all together and stay on topic here.
Conscript; Regarding the chrono, was there by chance heavier bb/s in your mags? That would have definately done it.
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Post by Mles on Jul 16, 2008 16:10:07 GMT -5
Getting shot with a hot gun kinda adds to the realism to me, it sometimes makes you scared for getting shot which is what Real War feels like(I am not saying that getting shot with a hot gun is anything compared to getting shot with a real gun). 350-400 isn't that bad unless you get shot bare(on your hand) or at very close ranges. If I was afraid of getting shot, I would be playing Nerf gun. I think I heard this from somebody that his friend's Marine or Army unit was training with paintballs but bare back, just to add a little more realism to the training. It is very hard to shoot with a low fps gun in the tree areas of SFOD, as it is way too easy for a leaf to block it, also, shooting with a low fps gun really eliminates a lot of fun from this game as often your opponent do not feel the hit. I think as long as the rules with 350+ guns entering the city is stricter, the rules we have as of right now works just fine. EDIT: If you are really afraid of getting hit in the face, just wear some kind of face protection. I was hit in the back with a REALLY hot gun, it hurt like a bitch but did not leave a bruise as I had my ACU for protection. Airsoft isn't paintball.
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Post by DeathDealer on Jul 16, 2008 16:50:20 GMT -5
I made the mistake of just going to my van and lying down for the rest of the day and I realize that part was my fault and next time something like this happens I will be sure to report it immediately.
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Post by conscript ☭ on Jul 16, 2008 21:43:34 GMT -5
Conscript; Regarding the chrono, was there by chance heavier bb/s in your mags? That would have definitely done it. Nyet, all bb's were .2 g bbs. What happened at gold rush 2 was when shot, the bbs hit the side of the chrono and then registered, I don't think that happened this time but that gun was shooting at optimum range in the field so something was up. Also, though I hated you guys on the field, you black water dudes did a good job and played well. You guys kept the game 'interesting' and I had no problem with you guys personally, even if I did join white water.
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Post by Knief on Jul 16, 2008 23:27:42 GMT -5
I made the mistake of just going to my van and lying down for the rest of the day and I realize that part was my fault and next time something like this happens I will be sure to report it immediately. Yeah, but if you remember, I pointed it out to bonesaw immediately. He did nothing about it, and that really bothered me. There are a lot of really dangerous attitudes being voiced here, and I don't have time to get into them. But just think a little bit about these statements: "Every single one of us got hit with hot guns. . .Unfortunatly when you play this game that is a risk you take. Im not saying that it doesnt suck but it happens. People not calling their hits, again it sucks but it will happen for as long as people play this sport." "As long as there's the option of shooting hot it WILL be done." So what you're saying is, because people cheat, we shouldn't try to enforce the rules? That's a great way to justify shooting people with hot guns from within your engagement limit. Maybe if you and others didn't hold this attitude, we'd end up with a lot fewer people getting shot from close range with hot guns. I don't want to play with somebody who has this kind of disregard for the safety rules. It's easy not to take the shot when somebody is too close. At Gold Rush II, I was running my red cylinder to pull off some long distance shots up the hill. With that cylinder in my gun, I had a few tangos rush the city and come within very close range of me. You know what I did? I didn't pull the fucking trigger. It's that simple. It's not worth risking their safety to improve my playability. I took the risk of not being able to shoot people when I opted to put the red cylinder in my gun for that game. I dealt with it, and nobody got shot with a hot gun from close range. It's not that fucking hard, and your attitude here is infuriating. "I am sorry for those who didn't have fun, but nobody is to blame for that but yourselves." Do you really think that the event hosts have no obligation to hold a fair and safe game, especially when they charge for it? Thank God task force: iris doesn't host any games. "Speaking of engagement limits, I got a few nasty hits that were no way in hell obeying engagement rules. I know what 350ish feels like, and I got blasted a few times from very close...too close IMHO." This one is only fucked up because the poster, Connors, was the only one to voice such a complaint who could actually do something about it. Connors, you're one of the event hosts, man. When you find somebody cheating, and that includes shooting within his engagement limit, you need to seek out the shooter and bench him or eject him. I can't do that, and Death Dealer can't do that. From what I've seen, you SFOD guys are unwilling to do that. You got hit from within an engagement limit and did nothing. I informed Bonesaw of a hot shooting when it happened and he did nothing. I love playing with you guys, and I think of you and Corey as being pretty good friends of mine off the field. But I see a huge problem with your unwillingness to handle problems on site. It's not hard to pull somebody out of play and walk them to the chrono (or hell, bring your portable chrono out) and check the gun. Ask kjones, I had to do it with him when I got a complaint about him shooting hot at the last No Limits game (he was fine, shooting just shy of 300). I have a whole lot more to say about this game and the stupid shit being said in this thread, but I've got work in the morning. Maybe I'll have some more time to get back to this around friday.
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Post by Kilo Oscar Tango on Jul 17, 2008 0:16:21 GMT -5
Guys I don't want to bring back the entire FPS argument, but it has to be said.
When you pick a FPS speed, such as above 350, you choose a specific role with different responsibilities and obligations. This isn't a sport of the biggest is the best, it's about accepting responsibility and doing things safely.
I don't want events that require rifles under 350 only because it spices up the game. I'm not perfect and I'm not saying everyone has to do this, but at this event I always stuck with someone with a CQB speed rifle because I can't engage within 20 feet. My role was longer distance engagements and that's the way I like it.
When I wanted to go into the city I swapped to a lower FPS rifle.
Stick to your role, pick a suitable role, and (shocker) use teamwork. Don't F@#$ it up for the rest of us.
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SkyPilot
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Post by SkyPilot on Jul 17, 2008 7:49:49 GMT -5
Getting shot with a hot gun kinda adds to the realism to me, it sometimes makes you scared for getting shot which is what Real War feels like(I am not saying that getting shot with a hot gun is anything compared to getting shot with a real gun). 350-400 isn't that bad unless you get shot bare(on your hand) or at very close ranges. If I was afraid of getting shot, I would be playing Nerf gun.... ...I was hit in the back with a REALLY hot gun, it hurt like a bitch but did not leave a bruise as I had my ACU for protection. Young Padawan, I think your missing the point between realism and safety. When the risk outweights the reward in any sport, is when the sport becomes dangerous. Soon you'll understand, soon. Just ask Bman (if he's still around) what happens with hot guns at close range.
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