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Post by Gunslinger on Jun 23, 2014 15:45:49 GMT -5
Its pretty interesting to see these guns plagued with the same stigma Systemas had back when they came out.
I think its pretty much the responsibility of the individual player to police them selves. Having said that when showing up to a event and some one tweaking their rifle on the field after chromo X is right, some one will cheat if that is their intent.
NOW, it is usually pretty simple to spot that type of player, we all know some douche bag kid that mommy and daddy bought them what ever they want or what have you so they have no respect for the event organizers much less other players or the field rules. They will be the one EVERY ONE is complaining about to the event organizer at lunch, then special care should be taken be it random spot checks on that player or group.
Tell EVERY ONE at briefing, "if you are caught cheating you will be asked to leave! NO refund and a ban on future events." simple as that.
The event organizers will THEN start to get more reputable players to show up at a event they are in control of and feel the other players there are more than likely going to be more honorable and worth playing with.
My experience has been I enjoy playing around the "higher end players" because there is honor and enjoying their company we share on the field. Once you catch someone cheating more times than not or even making "oops dude my bad", instances like that. BAN. We do it with the forums why not on the fields?
I know some times it comes down to being about the money and numbers for events and the draw, but when does safety over ride the bottom line? I have stopped going to local fields just for that reason, it has turned into being about the money so fields let little kids (sorry, under 18 is who I am talking about, not fair I know.) play with guns that shoot 400 plus FPS out of the box.
I have enjoyed playing at fields where there is a strict camp restriction, mag restriction and age, usually that will weed out most of those types of asshats, the rest weed them selves out. Yes it cost more money to be that type of player, yes that may shrink numbers, but it just seams more enjoyable for me to play with guys who have more going for them than "My mom dropped me off so I have to be in the parking lot when she shows up to get me".
Just my .02 cents.
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Post by Ogre on Jun 23, 2014 16:17:51 GMT -5
I have stopped going to local fields just for that reason, it has turned into being about the money so fields let little kids (sorry, under 18 is who I am talking about, not fair I know.) play with guns that shoot 400 plus FPS out of the box. I know a lot of the clone guns used to have issues pushing 400+ fps back in the day, I thought that has since been fixed? Most of the clones I see on the market are pushing sub 380.
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Post by X on Jun 23, 2014 16:25:26 GMT -5
Ideally we would test as many weights as possible to determine what type of curve it is.
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Post by Legionnaire on Jun 23, 2014 16:30:53 GMT -5
I have no experience with P*'s so forgive my ignorance but isn't there a way of regulating ROF on P*'s? To me, that seems to be the biggest issue I/others I have played with seem to have with them. ....Or just implement a semi only rule....What? Who said that?
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Post by Puma1 on Jun 23, 2014 16:34:08 GMT -5
—— P* Rules —— All polar star users must Chronograph with .4g bbs. I'm definitely not saying this should be the rule. I'm looking for improvements that could be made so we have a working system. —— P* Rules —— All polar star users must Chronograph with .4g bbs. CQB/indoor rules: Up to 250 fps with .4g bbs - 1.16 Joules maximum Outdoor rules: Arms length engagement: Up to 250fps w/ .4g bbs - 1.16 J max 20 ft engagement: Up to 280fps w/ .4g bbs - 1.457 J max. ( 6.7% reduction) 50 ft engagement: Semi only. Up to 350fps w/ .4g bbs - 2.28 J max. ( 18.9% joule reduction) This won't work. Polarstar users need to chrono with the weight bb they are going to be using. Anything else is going to skew the results. Also at 2.28j with a .40g bb is FAR too much power. Nation events like Lion Claws allow 1.55j MAX. No dmr role. The power levels you have are good, it's the fact you can't lump all p*s in the .40g bb weight to chrono. The issues we are having is not the platform, it's the asshole user who is causing the problems. I really like the chart you've created. I've thought about making something similar for a while, but couldn't quite figure out how to make it into an easy to read, easy to use format. Bravo. Couple of things. 1) Shouldn't the maximum energy output for CQB for AEGs and P*s be the same or slightly less for the P*? Currently, you're allowing 1.16 joules for P*s, but only 1.14 joules for AEGs. 2) You're making an assumption that high-FPS AEGs can't get above 8 BPS. Why is this? I'm fairly confident some of our membership could tune up an AEG to fire nearly as quickly as a P* on semi-auto at 500, 550 FPS. That said, I do think that people are far more likely to encounter high FPS P*s than to run into similarly tuned AEGs simply due to the complexity/required skill of tuning an AEG to have P* level DMR/sniper performance. 4. I know RAGE and Suicide Kings have pre-established chrono methodologies for P*s already. 5. How did you come up with your figures for the energy reductions (6.7% and 18.9%) for outdoor play? Were those just useful benchmarks because they were at 280 FPS and 350 FPS? In other words, why 1.457 joules and 2.28 joules specifically? Why not 1.5 or 2.3 or some other amount? 6. Since ROF seems to be one of the biggest issues, I'm surprised you didn't mention a ROF cap. I have no idea how you'd enforce that. To be clear, I think Puma is suggesting that P* users chrono with .40s so that the host can get an idea, essentially, of the highest energy level that they could be putting out. Most people, even P* users, aren't shooting rounds heavier than .40s (in my admittedly limited experience). So if I chrono with .40s and my P* is firing below whatever the maximum allowable energy level is then it's likely that when I hit the field I'll be shooting .25s, .30s or .40s and will still be under the max energy limit. On the other hand, if I chrono with .20s and am below the max allowable energy level, there's a greater likelihood that I'll hit the field firing .25s, .30s or .40s and might, as a result of energy creep, be firing above the max threshold. More broadly, I aboslutely agree with you. People will cheat if they want to cheat. 1st, to PaganWhile i agree it's not a perfect system, you can chrono with the .4g BBs a crossed the board. This will at the very least put you into a grouping by your engagement type. What I'm trying to say is if you're shooting 330 with the .2's, by the AEG standards you'd be at an arm's length engagement and shooting with 1.01 J of force. Now, if you chrono a polar star with the .4 at the same joule reading, it still puts you into the arms-length category. if you're shooting 380 with an AEG and .2's, you're putting out 1.34 J, and if you do the same thing w./ polar stars, it also puts them into the 20ft category (268 fps, If you're shooting 440 fps in the AEG arrangement, you're putting out 1.8J and are placed in the 50 ft engagement lint.. In the P* arrangement thats 311.3 fps with a .4, or 50 ft engagement. It lines up very well. To the line about national events: Our Bolt action sniper rifles can hit 2.81 Joules legally in MIA rules. For lion Claws, they have other differences as well, such as a more lax eye pro ideal and FPS limits. If we wish to push it lower, I'm all for it. Poloarsars are work horses and I don't want to subtract from that. To GimpalongThanks for the appreciation . 1) it fit the FPS better. its a 3% percent difference in joules. It can go either way. just for making the point it worked. 2) short of very few techs, you're rarely going to see that kind of a trigger response. yes its possible. Its much easier to make rules for the 99% than than 1% of outliers. 4) like i said, not trying to crush any already in place rules. 5) rather than taking the cutoff point at 308.359 fps, i just did what was the closest, most reasonable option. 6)ROF caps are semi incorporated. Getting hit by 20bbs of less force in a short span of time is just as painful as getting hit harder slightly fewer times. At least in my experience. Lastly, cheaters cheat. end of story. I'm not expecting everything to go perfectly by any means. IT's just a recommendation i suppose.
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Post by X on Jun 23, 2014 16:51:30 GMT -5
What I am eluding to in my last couple posts is that I'm questioning the magnitude of energy creep in polarstars and I'm also curious as to whether its any different in AEGs. This might be a rule that should apply to everyone, but if the creep is really minimal perhaps we don't need to worry about it at all.
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Post by Puma1 on Jun 23, 2014 17:41:28 GMT -5
Well, here's calling to all p* owners. Lets start with 3 different PSI settings. One you'd use for CQB, one for field and one as a DMR. Since i have 0 polarstarz pointz, please let us know your results.
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Post by Pagan on Jun 23, 2014 17:51:28 GMT -5
Well, here's calling to all p* owners. Lets start with 3 different PSI settings. One you'd use for CQB, one for field and one as a DMR. Since i have 0 polarstarz pointz, please let us know your results. Not that simple. It depends on what nozzle you're using, what poppet you have, what length barrel, what diameter barrel. Way too many factors for a simple tri fold psi setting. I can use my 223mm TK twist barrel with a psi of 80 and be at .98j, and then switch to a 363mm 6.03 tbb at 80 psi and be at 1.25j. All with the same .28g bbs.
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Post by cqbr on Jun 23, 2014 17:59:13 GMT -5
Who invented the Polarstar?
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Post by Pagan on Jun 23, 2014 18:03:37 GMT -5
Who invented the Polarstar?
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Post by Gunny87 on Jun 23, 2014 18:11:14 GMT -5
I know a lot of the clone guns used to have issues pushing 400+ fps back in the day, I thought that has since been fixed? Most of the clones I see on the market are pushing sub 380. I think Gunslinger is talking about back in the day. Airsoft guns started increasing in stock velocity after the early 2ks. Early airsoft guns like classic HPA powered guns as well as early AEGs pretty much all shot under 300fps. This was mostly due to the fact that only the Japanese were producing airsoft guns originally and by law are required to produce guns that shoot under 1 Joule if they want to sell them in their domestic market. Once the Chinese and Taiwanese started producing airsoft guns, the velocity of guns started increasing because they were selling guns outside of the Japanese domestic market and weren't required to comply by the one Joule requirement. However it was also a combination of marketing purposes and higher quality parts where we now see most airsoft guns averaging around 400fps. Also once the Chinese started selling airsoft guns at a much cheaper price compared to the Japanese, it lowered the price of entry into the hobby because airsoft guns went from costing on average $300-400 to under $150 for a comparable gun out of the box. I'm old enough to remember what it was like playing airsoft when pretty much everyone was shooting under 300fps and it was a little different than it is today. I have no experience with P*'s so forgive my ignorance but isn't there a way of regulating ROF on P*'s? To me, that seems to be the biggest issue I/others I have played with seem to have with them. Unless some sort of electronic lock has come out since I owned my P*, ROF is controlled trough the FCU, which can be adjusted on the fly. I really don't know what the best course of action here is because if you limit all HPA guns to a 1.55 max joules, then I feel like AEGs should be subjected to the same rules which really isn't fair to anyone. And chronoing all HPA guns with two different weight bb's is just unpractical in that it would take forever to chrono everyone especially as more and more HPA airsoft guns become available and adopted. Like X and others had mentioned, no matter which rules you implement, someone is going to find a way to cheat and get around the rules.
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Post by cqbr on Jun 23, 2014 18:11:59 GMT -5
Who invented the Polarstar? SNIP L O L. I KNEW it!
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Post by Mosin on Jun 23, 2014 19:36:02 GMT -5
I really think the only surefire thing we can do is as mentioned above, chrono the joules rating, and then spot check on field. It's worth getting those little circular stickers and a pen and using that method instead. I know at Lion Claws events those shooting PTW/CTW models had a tape tamper seal placed between upper and lower receiver.
We (RAGE) will be investing in at least two of those chronos that can fit in cargo pockets, and will be spot checking on field at future events. I'll admit my weakness is I know nothing about these systems, so I trust what other reputable players have to say about them and roll with that.
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Post by Pagan on Jun 23, 2014 19:39:33 GMT -5
I really think the only surefire thing we can do is as mentioned above, chrono the joules rating, and then spot check on field. It's worth getting those little circular stickers and a pen and using that method instead. I know at Lion Claws events those shooting PTW/CTW models had a tape tamper seal placed between upper and lower receiver. We (RAGE) will be investing in at least two of those chronos that can fit in cargo pockets, and will be spot checking on field at future events. I'll admit my weakness is I know nothing about these systems, so I trust what other reputable players have to say about them and roll with that. Another good tool is using the white zipties that have a space to write on. I normally pick them up at harbor freight. We put the psi on one side, and joules on the other.
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Post by Puma1 on Jun 23, 2014 21:42:40 GMT -5
So we've basically came back to where we started?
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