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Post by X on Jun 23, 2014 21:57:47 GMT -5
I still think it's worth trying out a few systems to see what the creep actually is. So long as nothing changes but the BB weight and we have a few different guns for samples we might get some meaningful data.
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Post by Gunslinger on Jun 23, 2014 22:22:13 GMT -5
I have checked out most different types of AEG's and manufacturers of them and more times than not out of the box guns shoot 400 plus fps. Even pistols nowadays seam to shoot over 350 fps. So then it falls on a player getting their gun "tech'd" out to some one to split their gear box.
I used to have minimally two AEG's, one for field use and one for cqb. It was easy enough to have both guns dialed in to what ever fps I wanted and just simply swap over accessories. This is part of the point I was trying to make. We had higher event fee's, more responcible restrictions that led to a lot of the fishier type players simply not being able to show up. More adults on the field less cheating and if they're was a iffy person on the field A; they had more to lose by a ban and B; they were easy to spot because they made them selves stick out because no one wanted to hang out with them other than other like minded cheaters and then it was easy keeping them off said field.
There will always be assholes who cheat, we know that but some thing as simple as carrying a small chrono you bought off ebay for 36.00 with free shipping (I know I have one) and checking those players who are suspect is sometimes the only way to oust them. Or have a feed back to even hosts via pm at a game, we all have smart phones and taking video and shooting it to a event host makes busting some chimo much easier now than ever before and ya can't argue with video proof.
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Post by Mosin on Jun 24, 2014 7:05:24 GMT -5
We had higher event fee's, more responcible restrictions that led to a lot of the fishier type players simply not being able to show up. Exactly what we (RAGE) is trying to replicate. I can recall times when the community was knit that tight, and nobody ever had to worry about the cheaters. These days MiA has turned into a rec game only state, so the masses are largely hesitant to pay anything above $20 for a Michigan event, regardless of quality of the event itself. The chrono chart is a good idea, although I don't want to significantly limit what a P* can do, as a player that has a very upgraded AEG platform can still legally reach up to 540 fps with a .2, but if we limit P* at 1.55joules, we limit them to (410?) as the max. According to Pagan mods can be done, and honestly that's good enough for me. A lot of the team members want to outright ban Polarstars from future RAGE events, but from a business perspective you lose at least 20% of your player turnout (Had a good 12-15 dudes running them at a 67 man rec game). In any case, on field chronograph is really the only solution, and constant enforcement. As I said in our AAR, not only did we not have on field chronographs to really enforce this, but from 3pm until we were done for the day it was only myself and Troub moderating the entire 90 acres of field we had, which didn't make for us being able to have eyes everywhere. But both those problems will be straightened out for our next game in July, of that I have no doubts.
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echo5
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Post by echo5 on Jun 24, 2014 7:47:26 GMT -5
I'm running a P*. I have had every AEG, GBB know to man, and I switched to the P* because it reminded me of the classic rifles all of us that have been in the hobby for 20 years use to use, and the simple relability. I never once thought about getting on the field and turning up my reg to compensate for a lack of skill. The truth is that a R hopped AEG will perform or out perform a P* in range and accuracy, the only thing a polarstar has is a high ROF. I personally only run 15rps. My personal choice. I was recently at OP Pandora in LaPorte Indiana, and the MIR tactical guys were chronoing all P* with .25's. The max allowable jewels with .25's was 1.66 J which put me at around 354fps with .25's. I ran .30's and the jewel rate was still within limits, which means my fps was also lower than when I chronoed, which means as far as speed goes an aeg was running a lighter faster round than what I was, so they had the advantage. If you think that fps increase on a polarstar is just by turning up your psi on your reg, your not really correct. You have to change your nozzle, which isn't really something to be done in the field, you also have to go into the fcu settings and change, ROF, poppet dwell, nozzle speed, ect... It's an absolute bitch. Please don't ban, or condone the tool. It is the next evolution of the weapons out there, and even it is being forced to evolve as newer smaller HPA systems are coming out. The new one hits the market in 7 days, and it drops in any aeg gearbox shell. There are assholes every where you go, unfortunately they are abusing this tool and give the rest of us a bad name. We have had this same discussion on the Indiana forums where I'm a mod, and unfortunately we hear and talk about the same things.
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Viper
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I still have a warning level?
Posts: 289
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Post by Viper on Jun 24, 2014 8:06:47 GMT -5
I still think it's worth trying out a few systems to see what the creep actually is. So long as nothing changes but the BB weight and we have a few different guns for samples we might get some meaningful data. I know I have a boat load of different weights lying around. (.2, .25, .28, .32, .4 just off the top of my head) I also have a 509mm 6.03 upper and a 300mm 6.03 upper (I could easily swap some other barrels around for a 363mm and I think it's a 407mm? as well) I will do some testing tonight and at least contribute to this a little.
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Post by X on Jun 24, 2014 8:26:03 GMT -5
Sounds good. If I were testing this I would run each BB weight through however many test setups you are going to do and average at least 10 shots. If you have the time I would also do one set with hop-up completely off and one with the hop-up tuned for a flat trajectory. If you can't turn it completely off or you can't get a flat trajectory make note of that during the test. Hop-up has a big influence on muzzle velocity. Which, now that I'm thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprised if there were no creep at all. My thought is that since the heavier BB needs more energy to spin at the same rotational velocity as a lighter BB you may see a negative energy creep assuming you are adjusting the hop up correctly.
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Post by Gimpalong on Jun 24, 2014 8:43:36 GMT -5
It surprises me to hear about bans or potential bans in the generally pro-gun airsoft community. Flat out banning a system seems to be a knee jerk reaction from fields that don't want to take the time to learn how to properly chrono these new guns.
These HPA based systems are only going to get more prevalent. The Wolverine SMP will be available soon, and in September when the Tippmann AR drops you'd better be ready because those things are going to start showing up every where.
In many cases, I'd argue that a lot of the issues surrounding Polarstars have less to do with abuses by Polarstar using players (although it does happen) than with Polarstars being new and not well understood. I recall Systemas getting a lot of heat back in the day.
The other thing is that if someone is cheating the chrono with an ICS/Ares/Systema, then they are cheating the chrono intentionally since they physically had to swap out a cylinder or spring.
With the Polarstar platform a player may chrono with .20s (as many times they are required to) at 395 FPS (1.45 joules). The person manning the chrono passes them through, zip-ties their gun, etc. The player then goes back to their car and loads their magazines with .40s. Due to energy creep, the player may be shooting 250 FPS, but the amount of energy carried by each BB may easily exceed the 1.55 joule cap. This can happen inadvertently or as a result of tuning the rifle for .40s or as a result of tuning the rifle to purposely exploit joule creep.
This issue has been compounded because the conventional wisdom among Polarstar users has been to shoot the heaviest weight BB they can find. This conventional wisdom developed because Polarstar users found that they could achieve longer range with heavier BBs. Well, no kidding, if you're using heavier BBs and putting out a lot more energy you're of course going to shoot further. This also happens to be why AEG users should fire heavier BBs as well, but joule creep in AEGs is harder to control, while Polarstars can be tuned using the FCU to exploit it.
To safely regulate Polarstars event hosts need to do the following:
1. Set a maximum energy output limit (MiA uses 1.50/1.55 generally). 2. Measure energy output in joules via chrono. 3. Chrono using the heaviest weight BB commonly being used in Polarstar rifles (I'd argue for .40s or .43s). 4. Note the FPS, Joule and PSI of the regulator on a tag that attaches to the gun. 5. Optional. Require a tournament lock or zip-tie the pack holding the regulator closed. 6. Optional. Impose a set cap on Polarstar ROF or mandate semi-auto only for all Polarstar rifles.
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Post by Marshy on Jun 24, 2014 9:54:13 GMT -5
I'm an idiot when it comes to all of the internal work and FCU support of the P*s since I've never owned one, but from what I understand, the FCU is somewhat difficult to program, but does allow the amount of air and length of burst of air to be tightly controlled. My question is, how much control does it have? Could a P* owner set the FCU to burst just enough air to get between the 350-410fps range from the (What I'm pretty sure is) maximum 120 psi in the tank? Like, the easily adjustable part of the rig is already maxed, but the FCU only outputs air long enough to get it to lets say... 400fps?
EDIT: Again, I don't really know the system that well, but this is just a thought that popped in my head.
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Viper
New Member
I still have a warning level?
Posts: 289
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Post by Viper on Jun 24, 2014 10:02:48 GMT -5
It's easy to program, it's difficult to understand. Theoretically I could drop 300 PSI into the Fusion Engine (SLP rig) if my regulator could support that. (Also the solenoids are only rated to 200 psi)
And yes to your amount of air question. That's one nice thing about the Fusion Engine over these new Wolverine things. I can tell the poppet to remain open for X milliseconds and can tune it per my barrel length. I forget the interval that I can tune it but its a pretty fine adjustment.
However, if I stop the air before the bb leaves the barrel, ie limiting it per your suggestion, all hell breaks loose with airflow and accuracy. A good idea, but not really how the system was intended.
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Post by Marshy on Jun 24, 2014 10:36:35 GMT -5
But that's exactly how the system could work. It shouldn't be vacuum seal, because there's mag and stuff in there holding it kind of open. As far as I understand, that just brings it closer to an AEG in airflow and completely eliminates the FPS creep exploitation. Accuracy shouldn't really be affected, just the ability to accelerate the BB to the end of the barrel causing increased joules at increased weights. As far as I understand it has more to do with longer burst of air when effectively causes wasted air to escape the end of the barrel on .2s but with heavier bbs accelerate to the end, effectivley making fps regulations useless. Yeah, the system wasn't meant to work exactly in this manner, but hey, it pretty much stops the exploitation of the creep which is just a fucking loophole to our current regulations, which, in my eyes, is no different than cheating.
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Post by Gimpalong on Jun 24, 2014 11:28:14 GMT -5
My understanding is that the FPS/Energy output of a fusion engine is related to the PSI that it is operating at, not how long the poppet stays open.
Basically, air flows into the poppet valve at a specific PSI, when the trigger is pulled the FCU opens the poppet for a set period of time and dumps the air out of the valve which runs through the air-nozzle, into the hop-up and out of the barrel. The various air nozzles (blue, green, silver, gold, red, etc) also constrict this air-flow and impact the overall FPS.
I think that you can make minor changes in FPS by adjusting the poppet dwell (DP setting on the FCU), but the prime driver of variation in FPS is going to be the input pressure through the air-rig.
I would agree that the ability to adjust the dwell time of the poppet valve (basically what allows joule creep to occur) makes FPS regulation useless. But that's why we should chrono paying attention to energy, not FPS.
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echo5
New Member
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Post by echo5 on Jun 24, 2014 11:51:25 GMT -5
When chronoing a P* always pay attention to energy, not fps. Anyone who uses a P* will tell you fps means nothing, except how fast you are shooting against someone with an aeg. It's always about energy. I can tell you that while plinking in the back yard with mine I put 115psi on .25's through a 6.03 tbb at 363mm and was able to pull 2.66J. That's insane and should never be set to or used. The fps was 478 btw. But I was using my silver nozzle that was set for that fps. I still use the same set up, but at 75psi, and achieve 1.54J with.25's. I'm R hopped, and at Pandora I got a confirmed kill at 270 ft. The beauty of the P* system is that with a r hopped, or flat hopped barrel, with the perfect air compression every time, you get incredible, beautiful long range shots. Energy is the deciding factor, not fps, or bb weight. Bb weight determines how far you are going to shoot in a P*. I would never run less than .28's at a game, and any decent P* set up is ment to use .28's to .43's, anything less and you have way to much over hop, or you get crap range because the air is to inconsistent around the bb. Dwell time on poppet valves aren't really going to increase your fps down a barrel. It's just the amount of air that is pushed down the barrel. The nozzle is going to restrict the amount of fps. Also, if you open your poppet dwell more, you have to slow down your nozzle speed to allow all that air to escape the barrel before you release the next round. You also end up lowering your rps settings. If you open the poppet dwell to much you are just wasting air, and the point with these rifles is to be uber efficient.
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Post by Marshy on Jun 24, 2014 14:35:53 GMT -5
I like the tampering stickers, can we just put those on the air rigs?
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Post by X on Jun 24, 2014 15:38:04 GMT -5
2.6 J isn't that crazy our upper limit is 2.8.
I'm actually quite skeptical of the magnitude of energy creep that everyone is assuming.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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Post by Puma1 on Jun 24, 2014 17:49:21 GMT -5
2.6 J isn't that crazy our upper limit is 2.8. I'm actually quite skeptical of the magnitude of energy creep that everyone is assuming. I'd have to disagree. The only non-p* guns I've ever seen shooting 520fps+ are mostly bolt actions and 3 or 4 DMR AEG builds. With a different nozzle and a TBB most p*'s can easily hit this range and still have instant trigger response. As pointed out earlier some AEG builds are capable of this, but they're extremely limited in number. If you're double tapping that's one thing. But I'd rather not have someone spam the trigger and get hit with 10 shots in a second or less at 2.6 J each. As far as energy creep, I'm not really sure how prevelent it is. I'm hoping we'll see some information on joule creep very soon. Secondly, as I believe Gimp had worried about: I personally have no thoughts to get rid of p*'s or to ban them. I think they're great. If I could afford one I'd have one. But as the system grows in popularity I just think we should have some type of system in place. Id rather be Proactive than reactive.
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