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Post by GHammer on Oct 19, 2009 12:34:53 GMT -5
Let me add this: There are already MILSIMs which are 18+. I'm not against making SCENARIOS 16+ or 18+ or require vouching but lets figure out a way to include younger players that doesn't keep them in their backyard or the few rec games they can find. Experienced players can come into those events where they know younger players will be and help them and mentor them. (OK, sounding a little like BIG BROTHER, but it can be fun too)
I'm still a noob and met two Immortals (Piper and Reaper) that I would have really liked to follow around for a day to learn.
Don't quit, make it better
EDIT: noobs need somewhere to yell at them, to tell them what to do, they know no better.
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Post by easy1 on Oct 19, 2009 12:57:43 GMT -5
GHammer, you and I have played together a few times and I know exactly what you are saying. I believe though, that even when there was a command structure(on the green side), that even when orders were issued, no one wanted to follow them. There were several times on the northwest side of the ridge, when I had to call some of my own side out for not calling hits. I'm a very easy going person, but the no-hit calling(from both sides) is what made me mad enough to leave after the start of the second half. I had hoped that the younger players would listen to what I was saying to them and within the blink of an eye, I would turn around and my entire squad would be gone, me standing there alone. I'm a firm believer that what I have learned should be passed along to those less experienced than me, but a blatant "let's go do what we want" just isn't the place for such a large game. Possibly REC. games are more suited for them than games with multiple objectives.
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Master_Oki_Akai
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Post by Master_Oki_Akai on Oct 19, 2009 13:17:05 GMT -5
On that note Easy1, we should probably mention a plug for that training camp idea. A weekend long event to train new players in what they need to do, and who can't find or read the rules, which have all been posted here on the boards and for the events (which only helps the folks who read the boards).
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Post by GHammer on Oct 19, 2009 13:25:24 GMT -5
Training camp would be a great way to establish someone to vouch for noobs.
Yes, it is also a problem not everyone who plays is on the boards and has access to the rules, which is why a summary sheet is important before the event starts. Getting younger players to read a long list of rules is tough. Getting them to listen to long rules is tough. There has to be a way. Breaking it down in training camp would certainly help for the younger generation with the inability to pay attention.
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Post by Melson on Oct 19, 2009 13:26:50 GMT -5
That is the dumbest idea I have ever heard of.
Why would a sixteen year old pay for a boot camp to hear about how much they should act like adults and not suck?
Furthermore how many parents would let their kid go away for a weekend with a bunch of random other people he met online? And what about the cost?
I know for a fact my brothers would not want to hear about how they should play and pay for it so I would recommend just scrapping that idea from your chalkboard.
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Post by easy1 on Oct 19, 2009 13:31:15 GMT -5
Who has said that they would have to pay of it?(hell. I'm willing to open up the schoolcraft field for free, just so things like that don't happen again). After a weekend with more experienced players teaching them what to do and what not to do, things at the game might have been more enjoyable. Melson, it's either something like the training idea or pretty soon only those 18+ will be allowed to play.
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Post by GHammer on Oct 19, 2009 13:34:40 GMT -5
Who would let their kids go someplace where they met people on the Internet? Weren't you at FFIV. The internet is how the event was organized. Participants also came the night before and camped as well as camped the night after.
It could be run as a one day or two day operation (thus less camping/pedophile concern). They could bring their own ammo and food to minimize cost. People could volunteer to host and run it, to repair weapons and teach gun repair and to lead.
Just because you don't see how it can work doesn't mean that it is dumb. Open you mind.
EDIT: Modified grammar because I was mad someone called an idea dumb and responded by brainstorming instead of taking my time. I agree that I am new to the forum and to airsoft and have stated that in my posts.
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Post by glassarchitect on Oct 19, 2009 13:41:55 GMT -5
I know it was really frustrating for many, and pissed a lot of people off. But instead of just bitching about it and considering quitting or not coming to another Flash Fire, let's figure out what we can do so this level of cheating and poor sportsmanship doesn't happen again. This was a learning experience for us at Armory. We're working on new ideas to implement so that our games run smoother. Perhaps with such a large turnout it wasn't the best event to introduce so many changes (medic system, objective system, prisoner rules, etc.). Perhaps we had a lot of new players who were turned off by the complex objectives and just wanted to shoot people. I agree with Easy1 that REC. games might be better suited. On the other hand, I think these new players got a crash course in Scenario/MILSIM games and just how much they entail. That a large amount of Airsoft games in Michigan do require a higher level of communication, teamwork, and much more than just shooting at the other team. I hope that they had fun, but I also hope that they understand why it can get out of hand. Coming to a large event, not calling hits and violating other rules makes the game worse for everyone else. Maybe people understand that now and the next event they attend will run better. I know we at Armory Airsoft are going to be discussing this event at length, and working out ways to combat the issues we ran into this weekend. I still enjoyed the game; I was quite happy to actually play at an event we hosted. The constant firefights and fast-paced play was great.
And Melson, it's not teaching them how to play. And it's geared toward the really new players, regardless of age. If a 32-yr. old wants to know more about the game hands-on before a large REC game or OP., this would be perfect. It would be designed to teach things like basic gun repair, (batteries, cleaning a barrel, unjamming, etc.), radio communication, and a run-through of the basic rules (goggles, hit calling, field safety, etc.).
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Post by Melson on Oct 19, 2009 13:53:42 GMT -5
Just because you don't see how it can work means that it is dumb. Open you mind. Because I will DEFINITELY listen to someone that's grammatically correct and is well known on the forum, my bad. And while we're at it hosting events on how people should play airsoft, Let me run side seminars for teaching guys how to get laid, in since MIA is in such a teaching mood. Next time just host events that are sixteen plus that are going to be that large. Otherwise put a respectable team on the rather noobish side, which tends to be the green team more often than not. Six pages of complaining about how no one is calling their hits is just overkill. End.
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Post by glassarchitect on Oct 19, 2009 14:01:07 GMT -5
I do agree with that... We're going to work on things so events don't have this many problems in the future, and we know why things went the way they did. We would like to get some feedback on the positive side of the event too. Or feedback in general, but maybe focus more on the parts of the event we had control over, like objectives, medic system, food at lunch (which will be a staple at all of our events definitely), etc.
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Post by kaboose1 on Oct 19, 2009 14:06:34 GMT -5
Ok A. I am still awaiting pictures.
And B. For all the veteran players, obviously you guys should realize that no matter where you go you are gonna run into cheaters and rookies who suck at hit calling. Or no matter what people are gonna forget about kill rags and end up getting over killed. Personally i believe every one is throwing a huge fit because there was a no tolerance policy on the hit calling issue and everyone paid more attention to who was calling hits and what not.
I personally disagree with the idea that any one would give up on any flash fire event at bangor because of one game. At the beginning we all saw how many rookies there were.
As for the mods who were on the field, i think they should have gotten the hell out of the way if they were gonna chit chat.
Again, i personally did not experience too much of a problem with hit calling or moderators getting in the way, but I have had to deal with it in the past and it drives me nuts. So i guess the only thing i can do is voice my opinion. Over all, I will still stand my point that i had a blast and i cant wait for the next flash fire event or any other event held by Armory Airsoft that i can hopefully make it too.
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Post by triggs on Oct 19, 2009 14:19:28 GMT -5
Improvements: Without at least 2 people to vouch 16 and under will not be allowed on field. Killrags: Everyone must have a killrag of some sort (orange, red, doesn't matter) no killrag no play, if you are caught without one immediate ejection from the game until one can be found. Blatant lack of hit calling: 1st offense double respawn time. 2nd offense ejection from game for 2hrs. 3rd offense ejection from game for the rest of the day and warning issued for the next attended game. Lifting goggles: Gone, ejection from game and day, 2nd offense = ban from field Moderators: Wear bright vests please temporary moderators/pressed into service, kill rags and if possible get an orange vest. And please for your own safety keep an eye on your surroundings and watch for cross fire. Objectives: better com clarification (I had way too many people on the NATO command com channel) Medic system: the card system is fine, but the blatant cheating of the system is not, this is an honor system, it's not that hard to be honest. Wounded/bleeding out: Great idea but if you are dead IMMEDIATELY go back to respawn don't talk on the field, if you are wounded lay down with your kill rag over you. For the record! Kids you think this is all aimed at you? No it is not, I had more blatant lack of calling from people my own age (college) and up than from those under 18. Adults you need to set the example as well as the kids.
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Post by Short Round on Oct 19, 2009 14:22:26 GMT -5
Wow. I have to say that I thought last years' FF was a little rough, but this... I think I'm throwing in the towel. This is the first airsoft game that in five years of playing that I walked off in disgust. When the game was going, it was going well. When it wasn't, wow, it wasn't. Don't get me wrong, for pure nubkill, it was a buffet. My kill to death ratio was insane. And I called all thew little wispy, float on the air currents and drop on my boot hits (there were two, actually). What killed the game was that "mods" were walking around in the line of fire, and refused to move. There was about a dozen times I lost a shot because some guy in green was talking to his buddy, and getting in my way... When I asked him to move, he responded that he was a mod, and if he wanted to stand there rambling on about dumpcockdoodyballs or whatever he was saying, he could. Next time, you get shot. And we had three green kids (and I mean KIDS) standing in our side of the city, yapping on about how they hated ignorant people, and how sweet they were at GRAW, and a bunch of horseshit. If I wouldn't go to jail for roughing up a kid, I would have dropped all three of those little shitmuffins in the river. "Oh, but we're mods!!" Great, go mod somewhere else, or shut your fucking mouths so we can play our game. And stop blocking my line of fire.
It was hard to tell who was AA staff and who got press-ganged into modding. Anyone not on the AA staff pretty much did a shitty job anyways, Canto, I'd stick to your guys, having abunch of 16-year old doorstops try to ref when they barely comprehend the game is just a recipe for disaster. The hit-calling. I built my Kitty Kat for one reason, besides being coveted by everyone else. To pound rounds at a really high ROF. Not the best range, but she's loud and mean, and when you get drilled by a dozen rounds, you know it. I had to question if it was even shooting sometimes. Then I would shoot a tree with it, and peel off acres of bark. Congrats to the guys charging from the airfield, you guys made me walk from my first game. I went through 7 mags on about as many guys at a decent range firing downhill, watching people get drilled in the face, drop, and when their teammate asked if they were hit, they rubbed their welts, which looked like a full-face case of herpes, and said "nope. I'm fine, dude." I guess that's the new tactic. Cheat till all the veteran players leave, then steamroll the rest. I had such high hopes for this game, I'm not gonna lie. FFI was one of the first big games I went to, and I loved it. This one, not so much. And if anyone thinks I'm coming off too high and mighty, I know FFIV had... what, about 130 people, give or take? I know a lot of refs left after the first game, but you had AA, and still some volunteers... I ran Warlord II with over 100 people with only a minor delay for losing someone, with NONE of this nubbish rubbish, and I WAS THE ONLY REF. Canto/AA, not trying to slam you guys too hard here, you can't be everywhere at once. But man, this game was hard for me to swallow. There were no small kids on the green team as mods, so they lied to you about it. If someone can correct me about that that's fine, but I recall no young kids as mods.
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Post by kustom on Oct 19, 2009 14:48:20 GMT -5
They were standing by the river in the city with kill rags tied to their clothes. They were bitching about being shot by tan even though they had their rags on, most of which were visible from only certain angles.
I suppose that it's possible that they weren't ON green team, they were just wearing woodland BDU's and calling tan "your team."
Regardless, their conduct sucked, so if they were on green team the whole time, and just beaing "dead advisors", they can take their romper-room BS and COD:4 skills back to where they belong: respawn.
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Explosives On Hand
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Post by Explosives On Hand on Oct 19, 2009 14:59:09 GMT -5
Honestly, I'd like to apologize on behalf of Armory Airsoft for not being more prepared for the mass amount of rules violations we had on Saturday. We were stretching for mods going in, and we lost two during dinner. Unfortunately having a 10+ moderator staff just isn't feasible for us right now. We will be modifying age restrictions, vouching systems and making consequences for rule breaking more tough in order to make sure cheating on this magnitude never happens again. I wish we could have a player base where this isn't nearly as much as issue, and I'm sad to say we don't. This isn't to say that the majority of players do not call their hits. But having 20 out of 120 players only call hits when a mod is standing within line of sight of them still ruins the game for everyone.
In the future, we will likely be using some sort of player identification card to help mods keep track of rule breakers. It is frustrating to me personally because all of the problems with cheating interferes with getting solid feedback on gameplay mechanics and objectives. Just how it gets in the way of players enjoying the gameplay during the game.
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