derick
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Post by derick on Oct 1, 2002 12:34:32 GMT -5
yeah, newbs scare me too especially when they are rich!! but yeah it should fall under smgs, mp5s, p90s,
rifles, m16s, aks, augs,
snipers, psg1, m24, aps 2 (NO FULL AUTO)
Assault, anything with vaery large cap mags, or anyting like a m249 or m60
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Vitalis
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I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
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Post by Vitalis on Oct 1, 2002 13:46:57 GMT -5
Ok, I have been thinking about this, and I went back and read the whole thread again. We have become just a teeny bit derailed.. Viking had a really good post in here and I like classifying the weapons. But... (there is that damned but again) For now, I think we should use the KISS method for fps. My main gripe was that the 50 foot engagement limit is unrealistic. Here is the change that I propose right now, and then we can work on our uber-leet weapon classification method. 1-400 fps, arm's length engagement limit 401-450 fps, 25' engagement limit 451-550 fps, 50' engagement limit These are all speeds based on .20 BBs. For those who prefer energy to fps, here is the EXACT SAME RULE but in joules: 0-1.48 joules, arm's length engagement limit 1.49-1.87 joules, 25' engagement limit 1.88-2.8 joules, 50' engagement limit So, what do you think, yes, no, maybe? Tomorrow I will get a vote thingy started. -Vitalis
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Fionn
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Post by Fionn on Oct 1, 2002 15:27:59 GMT -5
Viking>>By adding restrictions to weapons in category like Assault, Support, and Marksmen, or what ever, we add a few things to the game, mainly a more realistic battlefield. This would make it impossible for highly modified MP5s to outshoot/over power sniper rifles. By doing so the strategy in our games will be more sensitive and constructive. Actually deploying snipers for the long-range kill instead of getting the super upgraded AUG gunner (remembers the evil LK AUG *shutters *)to take the shot. >> I don’t think he means to really break it down into X categories for weapons. But just rules of engagement for weapons based upon FPS (imo joules would be better over all). So if an assault rifle was over 400 FPS w/ .2s (1.3262 j if my math is right can’t remember if it is .0000426 or .0000462 think it is .0000426) then the rules of engagement would be 25 or greater. Mind now that the SAW most likely will be the optimum choice due to the fact they have a longer barrel most often thus being more accurate. The longer the barrel for a smooth bore the more accurate it gets. That way if Joe Schmoe wants a M120 he would be dictated to fire semi in 1 to 25’ and 25’ and above full.
Minky>> 1) Vitalis, I think you're overestimating the power of most GBB pistols. I would say a more realistic average for pistols (from budget KWCs on up to WA guns) would be more like 300-330 if not a little lower. >> Actually we Cronographed Resnick’s WA GBB and a KSC M11 both were shooting in the 350 range this was Mid July though on Green Gas and .2’s. You have to take in account for the gas expansion in the heat. The worse welt I have seen was from the M11 and it was from about 10’ to 15’. I was on the giving end the opponent was on the receiving end, I was giving my self covering fire while advancing to keep his head down in the brush and got him in the cheek. What about tweaked out GBB’s w/ high flow valves and such? They start getting in the 1.6j range which would be about 430 and change in FPS w/ a .2. >> 2) How many different "levels" of guns do we want, and what will be fair to the people that have already upgraded? Do we want a simple distinction between SMG/Battle rifle, SAW, and Sniper? Doing it this way would mean that pretty much every Tokyo Marui AEG will fall under SMG/Rifle, so all TM guns could be upgraded similarly. >> See my response to Viking. >> Do we want to further classify within the TM line and make distinctions between SMGs and long rifles? We could try and base limits on internal barrel length, but then you run into the issue of certain upgrades performing differently in short and long guns, and alienating people who have already upgraded their short guns. Also where does the TM PSG-1 fit in? It's an AEG, but is semi only, so does it fall under the limits applied to bolt action spring rifles? What about Classic Army, Airsoft Elite, and ICS guns that come pre-upgraded from the factory? >> It isn’t a point of long barrel compare to short barrel for FPS barrel length only affects accuracy for a smooth bore weapon (minimal fps increase may be found). It is a comfort and safety zone balanced w/ range and tactile/pain interrupt response. What I mean by tactile/pain interrupt is feeling the sting of the bb a lot of the stock weapons at 70’+ are felt by me and all I wear is a BDU shirt and pants (ok ok boxers too don’t go commando). If you mean the SMG vs AR vs SAW and fps to make it real there is no true way to do it via fps. Plus while we do aspire for realism there is no real way to attain it w/ out the 50 so odd pounds of “incidental” items that the real deal guys do ;D.
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Fionn
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Post by Fionn on Oct 1, 2002 15:30:25 GMT -5
Derick>> 1. WE hould not measure with FPS< but JOULES for more accuracy >> Agreed. >> 2. We should consider any gun a support weapon if it meets the c mag qualifications and the power/energy rating. WE hsould do thi because "johnny" wants to be a supprot gunner but doesnt have he money to buy an m60 or m249 so he makes his m4 into a support weapon. Clearly understandable >> See earlier response to viking.
Snip of 3. >> 4., assault weapons should consist of anything up to 400 fps using .2s or what ever the energy value is in joules. The engagement limit should be a safe distance, no closer than like 5 ft as to where the knife rule would be in effect. >> Agree w/ 400. >> 5 Squad assult weapons shold be anywhere from 0 to 450 fps using .2s and they must have a cmag, not HIGH CAPS. They should have Very large capacities of bbs. Engagement limit should be around en feeet or further cinsidering that is considered the SUPPORT and not the first to go in. >> Well think min engagement of 20’ or 25’ over 400 to 500. Reason I say that is because it seems to be more palatable to some than 10’ (IMO 10’ is just as good).. But requiring c mags.. not so sure of that what about the double high caps that have the motor? If used n a RPK that is 1200 bb’s.
>> 6. SNipers shoul be anywhere from 0 to 600 fps using .2s and they should be semi auto or bolt action Engagement limits shoiould be 30 feet. A side arm would then be used for close combat. >> I haven’t been hit by anything that high at the close of a range so I wouldn’t really know. Nor have I ever shot anything like that so again wouldn’t know.
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Post by LargePrime on Oct 1, 2002 23:04:06 GMT -5
I see this discussion as seprate issues.
One issue is the FPS from a Pain and damage and saftey point of view.
Another issue is the milsim realism issue.
Are these really two seprate issues? Can they be discussed independantly? Should they be?
If they arent seprate issues can someone please explain why they arent?
Thanks
A little baby offshoot issue is the TDB avoidance issue.
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Vitalis
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I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
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Post by Vitalis on Oct 2, 2002 9:11:05 GMT -5
Hmmm, well, the way I see it, they are not separate issues because they have to work together. You have to have a mix of both of them to work.
-Vitalis
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WTS-Mike
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Post by WTS-Mike on Oct 2, 2002 11:50:38 GMT -5
Holy Crap!!! I guess I need to check this board a little more often......... 5 votes and the whole of airsoft is in Jeopardy! Vitalis, your NOT shooting me with a 400fps gun at arms length........sorry, friend or no friend !! IMO that is WAY to high powered for that close range and the 600 limit posted WILL encourage people to try and go that high I had calls THIS WEEK ALREADY!!! those kind of high power/close engagements will only result in more lost teeth, perforated noses and MORE bloody pictures posted on the internet (which is NOT what our sport needs if it purports to NOT shoot a "dangerous projectile") I see this as the beginning of the end if we allow that high of power at close range. (seriously) YOU don't talk to all the parents and assure them that airsoft is safe, etc.... THEY are legitimately concerned, and that opinion CAN shift with one of thier "babies" getting hurt. Another MAJOR consideration Remember airsoft is in michigan by the skin of its teeth as far as the law is concerned........ ONLY ONE phrase keeps us from having these classified as FIREARMS! "if it shoots [glow=red,2,300]a dangerous projectile [/glow]by means of gas, air or spring, larger than .177 cal it is considered a firearm" they MEET ALL the other criteria by Michigan law, and the other is up to interpretation If some senator or someone starts hearing of these "dangerous air rifle replicas" I mean it would take a little sway of public opinion, a newspaper article or two with YOUR posted pictures! and Voila! You'd have to get a permit to purchase for the pistols, because they would be considered firearms No one under 21 could buy from a retailer...... Having a friend buy it for you would be a felony "straw buyer purchase" ) I would have to sell them under our FFL, so NIC's FBI background checks for all, form 4473's Fun, Fun, Fun There is a whole host of other laws that come into play when dealing with airsoft guns classified as "firearms" Guys I may seem a little overboard on this, but airsoft is too closely linked to the gun culture, legislation will FLY thru rapidly under public opinion (from people who do not play or have never seen an airsoft gun) Tommorow! it could be all over (as we know it) we need to consider SAFETY as issue number one, not just wanting to be able to use the same upgraded gun indoors as well as outdoors! Remember this is a STATEWIDE FORUM, (even if the whole state isn't involved yet) We need to think bigger than just us........airsoft will grow, it has already. What we decide here and begin to enforce will set the course for the future of airsoft in michigan. We (WTS) will always enforce the lower limit with indoor games. WE have the "most" experience of anyone on this board, when it comes to close quarters engagements, (large numbers, many encounters, many skirms) we started hosting all indoor games, and did that almost exclusively for quite a while so we have seen the Upgraded effects bloody foreheads, and flared tempers, and people storming off the field, selling all thier airsoft stuff after being shot at just 10' with a 380-400 fps gun (mine used to be 400, but I backed it down to 340-350 cuz I don't want anyone to get hurt, or quit airsoft. vitalis, I know you like it rough, but there isn't a national agenda to demonize, ban, confiscate your swords (as far as I know, or at least not the same high powered public agenda as firearms) We need to keep this safe to insure future legality in our state.
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Vitalis
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I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
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Post by Vitalis on Oct 2, 2002 12:37:54 GMT -5
Ok Mike,
Fair enough and good points.
So what is the fix for the bullshit 50' ban that we don't use anyway?
Any ideas?
Despite how far this has all gotten off track, it still comes down to one thing, the fifty foot ban is horseshit, it isn't used, and not even enforced.
Fifty feet is a friggen joke. I'm not being the lover of pain here, I was just looking at acceptable levels. So, what will work? 10 feet? 15 feet?
I agree with something that Viking posted above, that we should have our own rules and not just copy Airsoft Ohio stuff.
BUT,
It is hard to look at their engagement rules and not wistfully think of them considering that they are much much more aggressive than ours.
And honestly, I wasn't considering CQB stuff in my proposed rules. Mainly, cause I personally think CQB is boring... My mistake and I appologise for not considering it.
But, cause it is played, wouldn't it make more sense to have outdoor rules and CQB rules regarding BB energy?
The point has been argued back and forth. People both supporting the more aggressive fps limits and people opposed to the aggressive fps limits have chimed in. To those of you that support them, nothing more needs to be said. For those of you that do not support them, I task you with this:
[glow=red,2,300]Suggest something that WILL work[/glow]
I wouldn't keep railing against the system, if the system actually worked. But we do not use the fifty foot rule.
-Vitalis
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Vitalis
New Member
I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
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Post by Vitalis on Oct 2, 2002 13:02:45 GMT -5
I know I am posting twice in a row... But bear with me, this is yet another proposal.... Our current MiA rules designate Indoor and Outdoor rules. For the sake of making it totally clear, all of my previous and current range and rules proposals are for outdoors only. [glow=red,2,300]They do NOT include anything for indoor combat[/glow] Here are the current rules: OUTDOOR/OPEN FIELD ENGAGEMENT LIMITS 1-350 fps - Arms length engagement limit 351-600 fps – 50 foot engagement limit 601+ fps – To be determined by event organizers INDOOR/ENCLOSED FIELD ENGAGEMENT LIMITS 1-350 fps – Arms length engagement limit 351+ fps – To be determined by event organizers ---- Now, my even newer proposed OUTDOOR rules are as follows: 1-350 fps - Arms length engagement limit 351-400 fps - 15 foot engagement limit 401-450 fps - 20 foot engagement limit 450-550 fps – 40 foot engagement limit, bolt action sniper weapons only. 551+ Banned! Except with special event hoster consideration. This is my last proposal. If anyone dissagrees, please, for the sake of discussion, suggest something else. -Vitalis
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Post by LargePrime on Oct 2, 2002 13:09:04 GMT -5
I think a player ought to be able to walk on the field with a stock airsoft and compete. Airsofts at 400 FPS have nearly twice the energy. 450's even more.
The only way I can see to even the playing field is minimum engagement limits. 400 FPS with some certian limit is about as usefull as a 300 with no limit. And so on for all the other FPS zones.
But what do you do if some one shoots you inside the limit? Blow a whistle? Game stops and we all go check it out? And if shots were fired inside then we say bad boy? And if it wasn't do we punsh the guy who was trying to be safe?
That sounds to me like too many rules. Too much work to make it all work and police it. People are gonna bi+ch and moan no matter what you do.
So I ask a question. Do we need different FPS ranges? What if we had just one safe at all distances range and thats it. No complaining. No complicated rules. No complicated enforcement. Just playing the game.
Vitalis we all know you like pain more than the rest of us. You get to play naked. The rest of us will wear 2,3 or 4 layers of clothing according to our wimp factor.
Is thier voting on this? Can i see it? I understand it Michigan law enforcement officers must certify with non lethal deviced, like pepper spray, clubs and what not. Part of that is that the officer must be attacked with the device to understand what it will do. I suggest all thoes voting on this issue be shot at the minimum distance for each FPS zone just before voting. They should understand very well what they are doing.
I was composing as vitalis was. The following was quickly done so this post will make sense. I agree with different rules for CQB. Surely CQB has closer engagements. But what if you have a mixed senario? Minimum rules apply for saftey?
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WTS-Mike
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Former Owner of Wolverine Tactical Supply and general all around nice guy
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Post by WTS-Mike on Oct 2, 2002 13:23:04 GMT -5
Ok, I must have missed that you already seperate indoor and outdoor rules.......my bad. I guess I took all of it together as a Blanket discussion, one set to cover all. apology.
Indoor looks good, we would never go over 350 for indoors, because the spaces limit you to 20 feet most of the time, and the long range places are few and far between. (impractical to wait for those two shots while traversing the whole facility, and MOST people are not that disciplined.
end of discussion for indoor as far as I am concerned
Now Outdoor,
You are right the 50 foot rule is hard to enforce, unless it was self enforced (clayton & I can only be so many places at once)
YOU WROTE: Now, my even newer proposed OUTDOOR rules are as follows:
1-350 fps - Arms length engagement limit
351-400 fps - 15 foot engagement limit
401-450 fps - 20 foot engagement limit
450-550 fps – 40 foot engagement limit, bolt action sniper weapons only.
551+ Banned! Except with special event hoster consideration.
That sounds plausible, except now you have two more distances to enforce with a larger number of players falling in those ranges.
I would be more for grouping the second and tird ranges with maybe an engagement range of 25'
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Vitalis
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I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
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Post by Vitalis on Oct 2, 2002 13:28:21 GMT -5
That sounds plausible, except now you have two more distances to enforce with a larger number of players falling in those ranges. I would be more for the original set with maybe a blanket 350-450 minimum engagement range 25' Ok, I can totally agree to that considering that is what I wrote first and then changed it at the last second... So, now it would look like this: 1-350 fps - Arms length engagement limit 351-450 fps - 25' engagement limit 451-550 fps – 40 foot engagement limit, bolt action sniper weapons only. 551+ Banned! Except with special event hoster consideration. Seems good to me.... I would like to see what the other MiA guys think. Thanks for the input Mike... -Vitalis
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WTS-Mike
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Preachah Man
Former Owner of Wolverine Tactical Supply and general all around nice guy
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Post by WTS-Mike on Oct 2, 2002 13:33:12 GMT -5
Thats It! that'll work! ;D
I always try and think of it from the host perspective too, not just a player.........like you said it was on paper but not enforceable...... now check out my ricochet "fuel to the fire" on the other topic
thanks Vitalis!
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Vitalis
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I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
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Post by Vitalis on Oct 2, 2002 13:39:01 GMT -5
I think a player ought to be able to walk on the field with a stock airsoft and compete. Airsofts at 400 FPS have nearly twice the energy. 450's even more. They can compete, even against guns shooting 400. I don't care what the energy says, the deciding factors are range and accuracy. There isn't that much of a difference in range. I competed all summer against guns shooting 350 to 400 with a weapon that was shooting around 260. Have you experienced this a lot on the field? It is up to the shooter to know his weapon and ranges. Period. And also, just like the hit rules, to be honorable about it. In a utopian world, I would agree, but if we set the minimum engagement at a universal point, it will be pretty far out there to compesate for things like support weapons and sniper rifles. Especially the sniper rifles. And then the stock AEGs would not be doing anything useful. You know me? I wasn't aware that we had met. What would be the point until we get something that generally agreed upon. Voting at this stage would be unfair to the people who agree and disagree both. -Vitalis
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WTS-Mike
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Preachah Man
Former Owner of Wolverine Tactical Supply and general all around nice guy
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Post by WTS-Mike on Oct 2, 2002 13:41:22 GMT -5
Vitalis plays naked??! large prime, if you have pics...........please DO NOT post them!
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