NotTroub
New Member
Definitely, not that Troubadour fella.
Posts: 43
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Post by NotTroub on Sept 23, 2013 15:59:40 GMT -5
Troub, You can stick around and say your piece here. I think that this has the potential to be an enlightening and community building discussion and as you started it you should be able to take part in it. Thank you, I appreciate it and like I said as soon as this discussion ends I'll be out of here.
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Post by Kurt 19D on Sept 23, 2013 16:34:54 GMT -5
1.)Limit the amount of ammunition carried onto the field. Back in the day, it used to be the common rule that players were limited in the ammunition they could carry onto the field. This total usually included one Hi-Cap per player and a set amount of bb's total. This was a good rule. Walking out with 2,000 rounds of ammunition is excessive and it leads to people who will just spray the entire field of bb's. You're less likely to care about what you're shooting at when you have a near unlimited amount of bb's at your disposal. You're also a lot more likely to overkill people, because hey who cares about sending 50 bbs at one target when you have so much ammunition. This rule would kill two annoying birds with one stone and honestly if this is your sort of play style, go play paintball. This isn't the game for you. My only concern with this item is that it could lead to more down time. If everyone is needing to head back to staging/parking lot to re-load after one game it will limit game time. I am all for trying it though.
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NotTroub
New Member
Definitely, not that Troubadour fella.
Posts: 43
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Post by NotTroub on Sept 23, 2013 16:55:40 GMT -5
1.)Limit the amount of ammunition carried onto the field. Back in the day, it used to be the common rule that players were limited in the ammunition they could carry onto the field. This total usually included one Hi-Cap per player and a set amount of bb's total. This was a good rule. Walking out with 2,000 rounds of ammunition is excessive and it leads to people who will just spray the entire field of bb's. You're less likely to care about what you're shooting at when you have a near unlimited amount of bb's at your disposal. You're also a lot more likely to overkill people, because hey who cares about sending 50 bbs at one target when you have so much ammunition. This rule would kill two annoying birds with one stone and honestly if this is your sort of play style, go play paintball. This isn't the game for you. My only concern with this item is that it could lead to more down time. If everyone is needing to head back to staging/parking lot to re-load after one game it will limit game time. I am all for trying it though. If you're expending around 800 bb's a game then you need to be picking your shots a little bit more carefully in all honesty. I can see your point though. I have no problems with people carrying loose ammunition on them, just limiting the amount of ammunition withheld in their magazines and limiting the amount of hi-caps seen on the field. Like I said, there is no reason you should be expending 500-800 rounds per game. Also, it's kind of the entire point of limiting peoples ammunition. You're gonna be a lot more careful about what you engage and how much you shoot (or overkill) if you only have so much ammunition in your magazines.
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Post by Relarz on Sept 23, 2013 17:06:04 GMT -5
I've started making a habit, especially at big milsim's, of carrying a TON of mags loaded and in a rucksack or go bag that I can ditch at a base-camp type area. There are ways to have enough ammo to keep you from making parking-lot runs and not utilizing hi-caps.
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Post by King on Sept 23, 2013 17:13:36 GMT -5
Like I said before, if it was the problem of people wearing confusing camouflages than REFs wouldn't be getting shot on a regular basis. I agree with everything you're saying, until that last part. Are refs also wearing clear identifying markers? Are they all wearing an orange vest or a red hat or something similar? The #1 baffling thing I see refs doing is going out to the field in full kit including cammies and holding their primary with maybe a red ballcap to identify them. What the hell are you doing with your rifle if you're supposed to be focused on the game? I can't count how many times someone has called for a ref and then some random dude who looks like he's in the fight runs up and says "I'm a ref". I know for a fact I've smoked a ref because he was in full gear and had is rifle raised because he was shooting a tree or some dumb shit, and then been yelled at for it. All that said, more often than being FF'd, I get ROASTED all the time walking to spawn with a kill rag on my head. In that instance, that's simply a matter of not being able to cure stupid, and why I don't think emphasis on identification will work for some people. I think clearing up uniforms for the majority and dealing with the idiots/mistakes is going to be the best we can do. I'm definitely in favor of the reflective friendly fire rule.
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Post by snafu on Sept 23, 2013 17:17:06 GMT -5
At SK games we all wear bright yellow or orange vests and I get lit up a few times per game. I even have an SK football referee shirt and that doesn't keep me safe.
Check your fire kids!
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Post by Pagan on Sept 23, 2013 17:23:37 GMT -5
I agree with everything you're saying, until that last part. Are refs also wearing clear identifying markers? Are they all wearing an orange vest or a red hat or something similar? The #1 baffling thing I see refs doing is going out to the field in full kit including cammies and holding their primary with maybe a red ballcap to identify them. What the hell are you doing with your rifle if you're supposed to be focused on the game? I can't count how many times someone has called for a ref and then some random dude who looks like he's in the fight runs up and says "I'm a ref". I know for a fact I've smoked a ref because he was in full gear and had is rifle raised because he was shooting a tree or some dumb shit, and then been yelled at for it. I have been standing in the middle of an open area, wearing a bright orange safety vest counting down the game start, and as SOON as I blow the whistle I get hit with a flurry of shots. People are just trigger happy. The final game of the day Saturday, another ref and I were standing out of game play, and I got hit with a full auto burst in the face. when I turned away, I was hit with a second one in the back. The shooter claimed he heard someone shoot, so he blasted me. That had nothing to do with what I was wearing, it was just poor trigger discipline.
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NotTroub
New Member
Definitely, not that Troubadour fella.
Posts: 43
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Post by NotTroub on Sept 23, 2013 17:23:42 GMT -5
Like I said before, if it was the problem of people wearing confusing camouflages than REFs wouldn't be getting shot on a regular basis. I agree with everything you're saying, until that last part. Are refs also wearing clear identifying markers? Are they all wearing an orange vest or a red hat or something similar? The #1 baffling thing I see refs doing is going out to the field in full kit including cammies and holding their primary with maybe a red ballcap to identify them. What the hell are you doing with your rifle if you're supposed to be focused on the game? I can't count how many times someone has called for a ref and then some random dude who looks like he's in the fight runs up and says "I'm a ref". I know for a fact I've smoked a ref because he was in full gear and had is rifle raised because he was shooting a tree or some dumb shit, and then been yelled at for it. All that said, more often than being FF'd, I get ROASTED all the time walking to spawn with a kill rag on my head. In that instance, that's simply a matter of not being able to cure stupid, and why I don't think emphasis on identification will work for some people. I think clearing up uniforms for the majority and dealing with the idiots/mistakes is going to be the best we can do. I'm definitely in favor of the reflective friendly fire rule. Yeah, I remember those days, but lately most games I've attended most REFs have been pretty good about not being in full kit. I know SK has full orange vests and RAGE wears their green shirts and jeans with zero kit on. So in boths instances the refs were clearly outlined and lit up. I agree there is no cure for stupid, so we just have to police stupid a little more strictly. Which is why we need to have guidelines for play that help reel in the stupid as much as possible. It's why we have idiotic and extreme laws in our real lives, because stupid people will do stupid 10 times out of 10.
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Post by Kilo Oscar Tango on Oct 1, 2013 19:28:40 GMT -5
I'm going to weigh in with my experience and opinion, but it's not that different than what's been said. So here's my rant.
I don't buy that camo variance is to blame for a high number of FF incidents. A few instances of confusion here or there I can understand, but the majority is through not identifying the target, firing at movement. The four rules of firearms applies to airsoft. I'm not saying we can only fire when our target is in full view, but there has to be a high probability a valid target is there. That means sometimes you have to hold your fire at the risk of your game life. I have been hit in the name of safety and positively identifying targets many times. Being that Airsoft is based at least partly on MILSIM positive target identification is a very real part of the game, that's a big part of real combat.
We could analyze the causes, such a videogame habits (lax consequences or lack of FF in games), but what we need are real solutions, mostly for new players. I have some tips from personal experience. The obvious first foundational step is to actually ID the target before you fire. 1. Know the range and consistency characteristics of your platform. Knowing what you can hit definitively may limit the spray for some. 2. Only fire first when there is a high probability you will hit them. Wait and watch if you don't have a winning position. In my opinion knowing when to fire and when to wait really sets players apart. Impatience does not help you survive. New players would be amazed how hard it is to see you if you're in concealment and completely still. 3. Keep tabs on where your team is and where they are going, keep looking around to see team movements. Communicate! Even if it's just with the only other guy at respawn, tell them your gameplan. This has definitely avoided FF situations in the past. If you're on radios you have a greater ability to coordinate. 4. Understand the assault: avoid stalemates. In Airsoft people figure out if you can actually hit them very quickly. Laying on the trigger through a bush isn't advised. In an assault scenario there are three main actions: suppression, movement, eliminating targets. Suppression isn't usually going to get the hits. Move to a better position and hit someone or take attention. The more people firing at the same time the more the other team knows about you, and likewise the longer you fire the more likely you opponent is moving to flank you. Understanding when to move and when your fire is important is key, firing randomly in the assumed direction of the enemy isn't necessarily a positive contribution, especially when other teammates might be trying to flank on that side.
I'll end the rant there. Those are some of the basics of combat, over time some may develop those habits, but most won't.
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