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Post by Phantom Reaper on Sept 23, 2013 14:40:19 GMT -5
I'd have to agree with King. Mistakes will always be made by Rookies and Veterans alike. It happens, and unless you have military training or some really good Trigger training its bound to happen every now and then. Part of the issue is not being able to properly ID a target, I think SE-MAP has a decent idea with taping different color'd pieces of tape to people to determine teams. I'm not sure how much cheaper it is then armbands but it seems to work well. I think this will always be an issue in airsoft, but we have to try and control how much of an issue it is.
*Edit* Damn Sleepy beat me too it.
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Post by Relarz on Sept 23, 2013 14:46:35 GMT -5
The fact that there's a ton of different camo patterns out there doesn't really enter into the point that people are just training themselves to shoot at movement and not ID targets. One of the reasons most events let so many different camo's out there is so that people aren't FORCED to go drop 40-100 quid on a new set of cammies just to go to the events here. To say that it's the camo isn't just a derail, it's flat-out counterproductive to the whole line of thought that this post is about.
I think that if you're willing to regress to the tape thing, then you're A. admitting that you have limited mental capacity for thinking, and B. you should just sell your airsoft guns and cammies and go buy a paintball jersey and a marker. The first one of you that tries to put tape on my shit can fuck right off.
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Post by cqbr on Sept 23, 2013 14:52:44 GMT -5
The uniformity idea is definitely a better idea than the armband thing. At games where we've been required to wear them, they do absolutely nothing for team ID'ing as their always attached to parts of your body that are almost never visible, or not large enough of a band to be of any use. Agreed with Adam though. You're never gonna fix the problem by asking everyone to 'think' about what they're doing before they do it. 99% of the people that are out playing for their first few games usually think of it as a video game of sorts and are caught up in the moment of shooting at people with a bbwarz gun. They're not worrying about who's on their team (Most likely because they're new and don't know any of the people around them) and what happens if they shoot the wrong person. Out of curiosity, how often are you people getting friendly fired at games? I only ask cause I'm pretty sure I only need one hand to count the times it's happened to me in the last couple years. The only times I've gotten FF'd was twice ironically by stupid kids shooting from RIGHT behind me that didn't know their height over bore on their optics and shot me in the back of the head.
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Post by King on Sept 23, 2013 14:54:07 GMT -5
The fact that there's a ton of different camo patterns out there doesn't really enter into the point that people are just training themselves to shoot at movement and not ID targets. One of the reasons most events let so many different camo's out there is so that people aren't FORCED to go drop 40-100 quid on a new set of cammies just to go to the events here. To say that it's the camo isn't just a derail, it's flat-out counterproductive to the whole line of thought that this post is about. I think that if you're willing to regress to the tape thing, then you're A. admitting that you have limited mental capacity for thinking, and B. you should just sell your airsoft guns and cammies and go buy a paintball jersey and a marker. The first one of you that tries to put tape on my shit can fuck right off. Edit: And it's not that I need an armband to tell friend from foe, the problem I have is when a guy is wearing Multicam pants, Woodland top and ACU gear. Enforce the camo requirements properly, and it eliminates the need for an armband. I think you're putting too much faith in the average dude who shows up to an MiA game. You're asking for that good MilSim mentality, when the reality is, MiA is SO not that.
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Post by Relarz on Sept 23, 2013 15:02:45 GMT -5
The fact that there's a ton of different camo patterns out there doesn't really enter into the point that people are just training themselves to shoot at movement and not ID targets. One of the reasons most events let so many different camo's out there is so that people aren't FORCED to go drop 40-100 quid on a new set of cammies just to go to the events here. To say that it's the camo isn't just a derail, it's flat-out counterproductive to the whole line of thought that this post is about. I think that if you're willing to regress to the tape thing, then you're A. admitting that you have limited mental capacity for thinking, and B. you should just sell your airsoft guns and cammies and go buy a paintball jersey and a marker. The first one of you that tries to put tape on my shit can fuck right off. I think you're putting too much faith in the average dude who shows up to an MiA game. You're asking for that good MilSim mentality, when the reality is, MiA is SO not that. So on one hand MiA asks its players old and new alike to "transport and handle your replicas as if they were real firearms" but once you're in the field it's OK to just have them haul off and shoot whatever they want? I agree that MiA has brought some stupid people out over the years, but I have had no problem with verbally confirming if someone is friendly or hostile. I haven't been FFed that much either, but its still a frustrating thing since all of mine happened in broad daylight. I don't really know that I WANT someone running around with something that can break skin or chip teeth if they're gonna be too "caught up in the moment" with it. If thats what happens, then I have bad news for that guy and it rhymes with "this-sport-is-not-for-ewe".
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Post by Gunny87 on Sept 23, 2013 15:04:01 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, how often are you people getting friendly fired at games? I only ask cause I'm pretty sure I only need one hand to count the times it's happened to me in the last couple years. The only times I've gotten FF'd was twice ironically by stupid kids shooting from RIGHT behind me that didn't know their height over bore on their optics and shot me in the back of the head. J.D, I only experienced one incident of friendly fire on Saturday's game. Mostly it occurs on the island during the reverse 300 games which is understandable because at that point you can't properly ID a target as friendly or foe on visual identification alone. I know I've FFd people on the island myself when both sides of the castle are being breached. I think the solution is a combination of trying to change the behavior of shooting first and asking questions later by implementing Troub's suggested rule of having the violator out rather than the victim, but also by being stricter on enforcing camo rules even at rec games. Of course there's still going to be FFIs, however it's worth trying in order to mitigate FF.
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Post by cqbr on Sept 23, 2013 15:09:16 GMT -5
J.D, I only experienced one incident of friendly fire on Saturday's game. Mostly it occurs on the island during the reverse 300 games which is understandable because at that point you can't properly ID a target as friendly or foe on visual identification alone. I know I've FFd people on the island myself when both sides of the castle are being breached. That's the only time I've really seen it happen at No Limits as well. Odds are there will never be a game where that doesn't happen though. You've got people converging on it from several different sides all looking to shoot whatever is inside those walls. LOOL
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Post by Phantom Reaper on Sept 23, 2013 15:11:10 GMT -5
The fact that there's a ton of different camo patterns out there doesn't really enter into the point that people are just training themselves to shoot at movement and not ID targets. One of the reasons most events let so many different camo's out there is so that people aren't FORCED to go drop 40-100 quid on a new set of cammies just to go to the events here. To say that it's the camo isn't just a derail, it's flat-out counterproductive to the whole line of thought that this post is about. I think that if you're willing to regress to the tape thing, then you're A. admitting that you have limited mental capacity for thinking, and B. you should just sell your airsoft guns and cammies and go buy a paintball jersey and a marker. The first one of you that tries to put tape on my shit can fuck right off. Dude I'm just telling you what I've seen that works. It was a suggestion, Not everyone is Super Sayin Milsim Spartan Soldier mentality, especially when they first start.
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Post by Relarz on Sept 23, 2013 15:13:09 GMT -5
The only result I see coming from limiting camo's at a rec game is poor attendance, but scientifically, we can't confirm any hypothesis without experimentation.
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Post by Mosin on Sept 23, 2013 15:16:30 GMT -5
I was friendly fired about five times at this event, although I was one of the guys wearing blue jeans and a green t shirt, I was told I should be on tan with multicam, maybe it was because of my coyote brown plate carrier, but I didn't see how it made sense. In any case, and back to the original post, I'm going to start implementing (At my games) that if you are caught by an enemy of the opposing team and he asks "Hey man, what team are you on?" that counts as a bang (If it was obvious he had the drop on you). It's much easier for everyone to get along when a guy has borderline either team camo scheme on and someone pops up and says "Hey dude, are you tan?" and if the guy obviously isn't and shoots the guy that questions, he is an asshole.
There is a general level of camaraderie that should go hand in hand with good sportsmanship. Maybe these rules need to be refreshed amongst Michigan Airsofters, but they're worth bringing up. - If you're friendly fired, the guy that shot you is out. - A bang kill is not the same as shooting someone out. 9 times out of 10 the guy should just be a braj and accept it, but have your finger on the trigger anyways on the off chance he isn't. If it's a team clarification issue, and you're asked what team you're on more than two or three times in a game, maybe you should switch out your tops or change your gear next time, to avoid this in the first place. If it's a safety issue (I.E: You've only got a sniper rifle) then you're the asshole because you need a pistol anyways. I'm not going to automatically call it at 50 feet out because you have a bolt action and nothing else. You either wait until I'm close enough for a knife kill, or you spend the extra $100 and get a decent enough pistol and engage with that when I'm close. Or let me pass without shooting me, which is something I've had to do numerous times when I only had a Maruzen APS-2. - Full auto shouldn't be allowed in CQC, unless it's agreed upon by all players. - You can't bum rush a room of five guys and yell bang, and expect that all five of them are going to call it. Regardless of how good you think you are, the chances of you tagging everyone in that room before someone can raise a rifle is slim to none. - Lastly, and this is more MilSim games than recs -- Highcaps need to be banned. Having a player with 9 high caps of 200 rds per now puts him at a higher round count with his rifle than a medium machine gunner. Encouraging the use of buying and using only highcaps goes against what we're trying to accomplish here with target ID and turns the game into paintsoft. There is a time and a place for going full auto, and if you're limited to 30-90 rds per mag vice 200, you're more likely to think about this before you flick that extra switch.
Any issues with those guidelines posted above? Or can we (MiA) come to a general agreement on these?
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Post by Gimpalong on Sept 23, 2013 15:19:47 GMT -5
Limited camo at rec games would be silly. It's a recreational game. Wear whatever the hell camo you want. If it's a large scenario or milsim game, however, that's a different story.
Look, I think we can all admit that uniform ambiguity is a pretty big part of the "real world." Sometimes it's difficult to tell friend from foe out there.
In airsoft, however, being unable to tell friend from foe is basically a recipe for having a lot of unhappy people. You've got people unhappy that they're being shot out by their own team, and you've got people who are unhappy because some ACU/Multicam/Woodland combo guy shot them out since it was impossible to determine the team of the player.
Obviously, yes, people need to stop and ID their targets before firing, but allowing uniform ambiguities just makes it that much harder to do so.
In addition, if someone spots you and yells "hey, what team?" You shouldn't be lying or being coy about it. You should flat out tell the other player your team. A) It's a safety issue so people aren't lighting up their teammates from 15 feet away and B) it's a fair play and sportsmanship sort of thing.
Now, sure, if there are specific rules built into the game where players are forewarned that they need to watch out for enemy players pretending to be on their team, then that's another story.
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Post by cqbr on Sept 23, 2013 15:48:26 GMT -5
It's not 'limiting' camo in the sense of telling people what to and not to wear, (Since that is definitely the point of a laid back rec game) but asking them politely not to be complete idiots and expect to not have any issues with getting FF'd while wearing say.... full OD clothes and full Tan gear, or a Tan top with blue jeans and green gear.
By all means wear whatever you want, just don't expect to not be FF'd when your appearance isn't 100% unmistakable as to what team you're on.
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NotTroub
New Member
Definitely, not that Troubadour fella.
Posts: 43
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Post by NotTroub on Sept 23, 2013 15:53:06 GMT -5
First off, I want to apologize to the Administration here. I understand that I am banned and I shouldn't be posting, however I created this discussion and it's simply killing me to not be able to add my voice in it. Ban me as soon as this topic is done, whatever that's fine. I've accepted my Banning for 3 straight years and never made much of a fuss about it and never created a fake account (like many do). I am just asking this one time I be allowed. I wont post anywhere else, I will just post in this thread. Just so I can do my part to get this issue settled and then I will leave again and continue my punishment. Hell, even if I am just allowed this one message before you ban me again, I am happy. I apologize once again. I just can't sit here and watch this discussion go on without adding my own voice.
All right, lets start this off.
While I will agree the lack of camouflage restrictions at recent events has gotten out of hand and they do need to be rocked back a little, it is not the problem we face here today. If it was the problem you would not see Refs continue shot, you would not see Roleplayers lit up, or photogs lit up. These are people usually wearing blaze orange vests, you can't have a much clearer identification than that and they still get lit up. So why would armbands work any better?
They wouldn't because the real issue we are facing here is that players do not want to take the time to properly ID their targets. They see a target, they want to unleash a burst out of their replica at it. I am not here to indoctrinate people and make them see the light. It's not going to work, most aren't gonna care, or bother with it. They're gonna continue running around like a chicken with it's head cut off lighting up refs and teammates alike.
This is why it falls to event hosters and MiA to come to a new set of rules that will bring airsoft back in the right direction. Away from where it has been headed.
I propose we do this by event hosters and MiA coming to agreement to a set of rules that will define the play for Michigan, so that we can continue to play the game we love the way we love to play it. We didn't start playing this game to play paintball with realistic looking replicas, we started playing this game to play a separate sort of game. We started playing a game that called for the use of teamwork, tactics, and sportsmanship.
That is why I say we work out these rules here and now... I'll start:
1.)Limit the amount of ammunition carried onto the field. Back in the day, it used to be the common rule that players were limited in the ammunition they could carry onto the field. This total usually included one Hi-Cap per player and a set amount of bb's total. This was a good rule. Walking out with 2,000 rounds of ammunition is excessive and it leads to people who will just spray the entire field of bb's. You're less likely to care about what you're shooting at when you have a near unlimited amount of bb's at your disposal. You're also a lot more likely to overkill people, because hey who cares about sending 50 bbs at one target when you have so much ammunition. This rule would kill two annoying birds with one stone and honestly if this is your sort of play style, go play paintball. This isn't the game for you.
2.)Reflective Teamkill rule. This one has been stated numerous times so we won't go over it.
3.)Scale back the amount of camouflage allowed. I am not saying limit it to one type for each side, but lets not get ridiculous. Something simple like "Multicam and Desert Marpat/DCU" on one side and "AOR2/Marpat/BDU" on the other. Instead of these long lists of different camouflages.
4.)The shooting of refs without reasonable cause (as in the refs were embedded with a group of players, i.e when a ref is just standing out in the open) should be punished with the offending player being forced to go back to spawn.
5.)Continuously offending players of the FFI rule need to be called out and made known. There is no excuse for this type of play as it is detrimental to our airsoft community. Players who play selfishly like this have no right to play with us, just as cheaters and thieves have no right to play with us.
That's it, that's all I really have for right now. Now discuss, be open, think about it, let's not shy away from the solution here. Let's not fall into the gap of making excuses and placing blame because it's easier and we don't have to work at it... NO! FUCK THAT! Let's work this out and make airsoft better in Michigan.
Also, I ask that while you do have a voice newer players, please, please, please, just think about what comes out of your fingers before you post, don't add unnecessary and detrimental nonsense to this discussion. Listen to what the veterans have to say, take in their advice, and don't be so quick to think you know everything.
Anyways, I don't know if I'll get to add more to the discussion, but I hope I am allowed to just this once. But hey, if I at least got the motors turning I am happy.
Thank You, Troubadour
Edit: P.S Stop blaming people's choice of camouflage as the reason they get FF'd, that is taking responsibility away from the shooter. It's saying the victim is at fault and that isn't helpful to anything we are discussing here. FFIs happen 95% of the time because someone was irresponsible and didn't take the time to correctly identify what they were shooting at. Like I said before, if it was the problem of people wearing confusing camouflages than REFs wouldn't be getting shot on a regular basis.
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Post by Gimpalong on Sept 23, 2013 15:53:51 GMT -5
It's not 'limiting' camo in the sense of telling people what to and not to wear, (Since that is definitely the point of a laid back rec game) but asking them politely not to be complete idiots and expect to not have any issues with getting FF'd while wearing say.... full OD clothes and full Tan gear, or a Tan top with blue jeans and green gear. By all means wear whatever you want, just don't expect to not be FF'd when your appearance isn't 100% unmistakable as to what team you're on. Exactly - don't bitch if you get shot while you're dead because you didn't have a kill rag, and don't bitch if you get shot when you're wearing twelve different camo patterns.
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Post by Knief on Sept 23, 2013 15:55:16 GMT -5
Troub,
You can stick around and say your piece here. I think that this has the potential to be an enlightening and community building discussion and as you started it you should be able to take part in it.
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