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Post by slippy on Jul 21, 2013 20:59:43 GMT -5
This is going to sound like your typical rant but I feel they are valid questions none the less.
1. I know that EVERY event uses uniform colors to distinguish between teams but you always seem to see players showing up in civilian attire. What can we do about this? I know that when your starting out the initial cost for items can be staggering and that most of us are gear whores and our kits are never truly complete in our minds, but my point remains the same. Can we suggest that players who have no camo at least make an attempt such as a green or tan t-shirt? Or should it be something as simple different colored tape around both arms to maintain a system that makes you easily identifiable as green/tan team?
2. Every event recommends kill rags but why not require them? This item is is no way the same situation as the first since red bandanas cost one dollar at Walmart. Really any brightly colored fabric would work. At every event you see/hear newer players complain about being shot after they called "hit" and they don't have kill rags. In my opinion they prevent over-shooting and could loosely be included as a safety related item.
3. Most events state that barrel blocking devices are required in safe areas but I rarely see this enforced. Thoughts?
4. All events require full-seal ANSI rated goggles and most have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to this. My point being that at most event I see players wearing shooting glasses, safety glasses and even one wearing lab goggles. Why is the rule not enforced and those players removed from the field of play? I think it's a major safety issue that needs to be addressed by the community as a whole especially since they are the most important safety item in airsoft.
I'm not trying to single out any single person/field by this post, but as I play more and more milsims these four questions are constantly on my mind on my long drive home.
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Post by Knief on Jul 21, 2013 21:10:49 GMT -5
This is going to sound like your typical rant but I feel they are valid questions none the less. 1. I know that EVERY event uses uniform colors to distinguish between teams but you always seem to see players showing up in civilian attire. What can we do about this? I know that when your starting out the initial cost for items can be staggering and that most of us are gear whores and our kits are never truly complete in our minds, but my point remains the same. Can we suggest that players who have no camo at least make an attempt such as a green or tan t-shirt? Or should it be something as simple different colored tape around both arms to maintain a system that makes you easily identifiable as green/tan team? If it's a rec game, you don't do anything about it except stack all the civilian players on one team. If it's a milsim game, you turn people away who don't fit your uniform requirements. Bonus if it's a pre-pay event. Anybody who doesn't have a kill rag doesn't get to bitch about being overkilled. Anybody who doesn't have a kill rag needs to wave their hands in the air and yell as loud as they can. Everybody needs to do a better job of IDing their targets, but that isn't something that the event hosts can change. I get shot way more when I ref despite wearing a bright red hat and an orange vest. New players shoot at anything that moves. They'll stare you down for 10 seconds when you're out in the open, fire a long burst, ignore you when you yell that you're a ref, and fire another burst. Then it dawns on them that they're a fucking idiot. NL enforces it. I like this rule, but I also don't see it as necessary as long as players are forced to take their mags out and not to fire in the safe zone. What do hosts need to do to enforce either set of rules? Kick out people who break the rule. The problem you see is that too many hosts are too lax about this kind of thing. Nobody wants to be the dick to send somebody home, but when that person is creating a major safety hazard, everybody else appreciates it. I can't speak for others here, but I'll immediately kick out anybody I see who doesn't have full seals on and anybody who lifts them on the field. I have zero tolerance for this. I know that Pagan and SK are more or less on the same level there. Guys like Ogre don't fully understand the risk they're creating and he's going to get a serious reality check if he doesn't start enforcing the full seal rule. |
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Post by Squirrel on Jul 21, 2013 21:25:07 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever seen somebody make it onto the playing field without proper glasses at No Limits in the past year.
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Post by slippy on Jul 21, 2013 21:25:54 GMT -5
Knief your absolutely right about everything you have said. I exclusively attend milsims and it seems like these problems are prevelent at most fields. As far as #3 goes it irks me to see rules posted and then event hosts do nothing to enforce them.
In my mind event hosts are typically people that new players tend to look up to. I feel like it sets a bad example when it turns into "Well we said these were the rules. Oh well, screw it."
Squirrel I've sadly seen it at three fields this year.
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Post by triggs on Jul 21, 2013 21:26:15 GMT -5
A lot of it comes down to having the manpower to police everything. It gets crazy hectic, and sometimes things slip through.
1. It really depends on the event, if its a REC or OP defines how strict it is on camo requirements. For instance OLCMSS has a VERY strict camo requirements at a number of their events (although I have noticed they are changing/updating them). On the other hand a REC day is so laid back a few people showing up in jeans/khaki pants with a varying colored shirt doesn't throw off numbers too badly. A number of event hosts do give clear definitions for OP's and such as to what constitutes "contractor" (the usual being khaki pants and a black t-shirt). As the event host its entirely up to you as to what to post for the event and define the camo restrictions. OP's will benefit from strict rules, REC days you're better off just using armbands if it becomes too confusing. But be aware, regardless, there will always be players that show up unprepared so you have to be flexible and on your toes.
2. Most events require them....haven't seen one that simply recommends them. As event hosts it always pays to have a cheap pack of shop rags. However, there is some player responsibility, and they bring it upon themselves. Seriously, a red/bright rag barely costs anything, guarantee you have something around the house that would work. Don't go complaining about being overshot when you clearly do nothing to say I'M OUT.
3. Manpower, pure and simple, even a full host team can't be everywhere all the time. Normally the threat of field warnings/dismissals will be enough, but again there always players that seem to miss the point.
4. This actually has been a standing discussion between a lot of us event hosts. One factor is field insurance and the policies specified by said insurance. Depending on how strict the policy is written "full-seal" can mean many things. Again going back to OLCMSS, their definition requires a rubber/foam/conforming seal to the players face. Many paintball fields also require this due to their insurance policy. On the other hand some OLCMSS events only require the "full-seal" in the sense that it conforms to the player's face and would not let a BB through (i.e. conforms to the face without foam). Personally I love it when I can use my glasses instead of goggles, less fogging to deal with.
And on that note, you may see players with any range of goggles ranging from full paintball masks to "shooting glasses." But what to keep in mind as a viewer is they may very well be ANSI 87.1 rated. I myself have ANSI 87.1 rated "shooting glasses" that full-seal to my face and as long as field insurance allows for it, I use them. At the same time it is of course the responsibility of the event host(s) to check people before they enter the field (which every fellow host I know does, some even more carefully than others). That being said, I expect the players to be responsible and A. Check with the event host on their acceptance of a particular setup. B. Have their own safety in mind and use something ballistic rated. But that's also accounting for common sense...yeah...about that...
Out west the OLCMSS rules also vary, midwest/east cost clearly define a ANSI rated, full seal goggles. However (and I suspect due to the heat) many events on the west coast allow for mesh goggles if the player so wishes.
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Post by slippy on Jul 21, 2013 21:35:28 GMT -5
3. Manpower, pure and simple, even a full host team can't be everywhere all the time. Normally the threat of field warnings/dismissals will be enough, but again there always players that seem to miss the point. I understand that and with it in mind I'm always trying to help in my own way at ops. I swear I tell people a lot "Hey take out your mag" "Hey dude, you forgot to put on your barrel blocker" "Leave your goggles on". Most of the time it's met with looks of contempt and eye-rolling. |
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Post by triggs on Jul 21, 2013 22:15:29 GMT -5
That's probably of a case that you aren't on the host team (forgive me if you are, I'm just assuming), so people are less likely to take you seriously.
Humanity is stupid like that, they want laws keeping people that lack common sense alive, but get pissed when they're told things for their own safety.
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Post by Zorak on Jul 21, 2013 23:22:30 GMT -5
I know that I keep my opinions to myself when I see bad behavior on the field because I'm not in charge out there. Getting in someone's face without any authority backing you up is just a way to ruin my day.
If teams need more help running games, they should send up flares. I suspect you might get more volunteers than you expect. The trick is to be very clear on your rules. Don't ask people to volunteer just to holler aimlessly. Tell them how to enforce the rules and make it clear that they're empowered to lead people right back to their cars and off the property if the player's bad behavior goes far enough.
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Post by slippy on Jul 22, 2013 6:30:37 GMT -5
All of my points are universal between airsoft and paintball. I helped run a field at one point (reffing, running the store, hosting tournaments) and its the same all over. Kids taking off goggles, dry firing in safe areas, no barrel condoms. It got to the point that I would only issue a verbal warning if I had never seen the player before and were obviously new to the sport. Otherwise I would have them quickly removed from the field/event.
I know the pains that event hosts have on these issues. But most of the time when I witness things such as what I have mentioned it's simply event personnel being incredibly lax on the rules
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Post by M.S.-ARC on Jul 22, 2013 9:54:38 GMT -5
I actually think that it would be good to call out any event hosts that are running games (if advertised on MIA) that are not safe and up to the same standards that we as a community have set. This is for cases where event personnel are being lax on the rules.
The main concern for those standards is safety and if a group is holding unsafe games then it would be good to know about it rather than find out on the field. This also gives the rest of us a way to let them know that we would like to see a change before they would get any support from us.
In the case of people attending larger games and getting away with rule violations because the refs didn't see it, as a participant you should at the very least report it to the event host because they can't see everything that goes on and it would be very helpful to have other eyes that are on the look out. I've been in situations where we weren't hosting a game and I've told people to put their goggles back on or called them out on a rule violation. I've also been in situations where instead of telling the offender, I told a ref about it. We really need to police ourselves when it comes to on-field rules that are for safety reasons. Ultimately you are doing someone a favor and preventing a dangerous situation that could happen to you or anyone else.
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Post by slippy on Jul 22, 2013 16:09:48 GMT -5
At the encouragement of a mod I feel the need to throw this out there.
Ogre, I know that you and your group are trying very hard with your events. But with that being said I noticed something that I consider to be unacceptable.
The lack of full seal eyewear at, your event was unreal. A lot of the players in civilian clothes were wearing safety glasses, shooting glasses and even one was wearing lab goggles. The worst part is it wasn't only limited to the players. One of your own guys was guilty of it as well. Your written rules complied with MIA standards, but you did not enforce it at all. While in line for chrono I heard two players ask one of your staff if it was ok to wear shooting glasses. I thought to myself "easy answer". But, incredibly, he said it was ok.
So all of this comes down to stupidity and lax rules. Stupidity because I'm guessing that by allowing players to be unsafe you think that it's ok. Wrong, it's a lawyers wet dream come true. The lax rules part is pretty self explanatory. There's no excuse especially when one of your staff was wearing shooting glasses.
I apologize for putting you and yours on blast like this but the crowd there was pretty new and impressionable. You're essentially saying that safety is a secondary concern.
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Post by M.S.-ARC on Jul 22, 2013 16:22:16 GMT -5
Just so it's out there, I encourage slippy to share his experience because we as a community really need to address any possible issues that could lead to problems within the community. If members from different areas decide to pick and chose which rules to follow and which ones to ignore, we will have issues with groups being brought up with different standards of safety.
I know that this issue has already been addressed with OCAA and it looks like their event listings have been updated per MIA standards but from what I've been hearing is that what is said on MIA is not necessarily addressed on the field.
If you want to continue to engage MIA and post your games here and recruit, the least you can do is comply with the standards that have been set otherwise GTFO.
Event organizers, you guys are held to even stricter standards. What you do is what becomes law during games. If people see you being lax about eye protection then expect that to happen on the field. If people see that you do not enforce the FPS regulations then expect people to start sneaking in very hot and unsafe guns. It sucks to have to tell someone they can't play especially when its one of your buddies but if you let one go then you have to let all of them go and at that point, what's the point of having rules? Chances are that if you tell someone that they can't play due to a rule violation, that they will make the proper adjustment so that they will be able to play next time.
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Post by Ogre on Jul 22, 2013 23:18:17 GMT -5
At the encouragement of a mod I feel the need to throw this out there. Ogre, I know that you and your group are trying very hard with your events. But with that being said I noticed something that I consider to be unacceptable. The lack of full seal eyewear at, your event was unreal. A lot of the players in civilian clothes were wearing safety glasses, shooting glasses and even one was wearing lab goggles. The worst part is it wasn't only limited to the players. One of your own guys was guilty of it as well. Your written rules complied with MIA standards, but you did not enforce it at all. While in line for chrono I heard two players ask one of your staff if it was ok to wear shooting glasses. I thought to myself "easy answer". But, incredibly, he said it was ok. So all of this comes down to stupidity and lax rules. Stupidity because I'm guessing that by allowing players to be unsafe you think that it's ok. Wrong, it's a lawyers wet dream come true. The lax rules part is pretty self explanatory. There's no excuse especially when one of your staff was wearing shooting glasses. I apologize for putting you and yours on blast like this but the crowd there was pretty new and impressionable. You're essentially saying that safety is a secondary concern. I already PM'd Knief about this, but I didn't read this far into, I did correct those players on if it was Ok to wear shooting glasses, I told them it was not, I turned one player away personally that came to the event on his own. The staff member that you believed was wearing shooting glasses? They have a foam seal around them and a back strap, those constitute as full seal, all the other players that I thought were wearing safety or shooting glasses that I saw, I confronted and they had foam seals around the edges, but since they were glasses and not goggles, that isn't something that you notice until you get a close look at them. I also lent out several pairs of goggles out to players, some I didn't get back. Not that that is a big deal, flak jacks are a dime a dozen. Everyone that works with me, Deputy, Gimp, Galaxy (heard he was changing his call sign to Cardinal but not sure if he has on the forum yet) work hard to put on a FREE event. I'm not sure about the situation with the Tan team, since I wasn't on it, but I heard there were few issues as well. The Camo issue was my fault and my fault alone and I apologize about that, I had a group of local players that requested to be on green because we wanted our group to play together since at every event we are always against each-other, they were new additions to our group but they were still part of our local team. Next game I'm making sure I throw all civvies on Tan, but they should have green camo by that time. As I was about to post this, another thing I noticed that may have added to any confusion hit me, many players, before briefing and some that I noticed during chrono, were wearing safety glasses for the time being, then switched to Full seal right before the game, probably accounts for the "Unreal amount of improper eye protection" you saw. While I'm not sure how other players feel about that, that is something I am ok with, considering there was no gameplay going on, on the other hand, I can see how that would make you feel uneasy, and during chrono, I remember asking players wearing shooting glasses if they had fullseal, they all told me yes, and switched to it by game time. My camera was going at that time so i can produce video evidence if you would like, I have 16 minutes of video from that and the entire chrono section on video. |
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Post by Cardinal on Jul 22, 2013 23:42:56 GMT -5
It can be validated that Green leader did in fact check for goggles and zip-ties among the team whilst we headed to Green HQ.
Cannot confirm whether or not Tan did the same, but it is assumed so.
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zagar230
New Member
Papa Smurf The Ninja Spy
Posts: 50 
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Post by zagar230 on Jul 22, 2013 23:46:35 GMT -5
I do not rememeb tan checking my gun/goggles. I had 4 wheeler goggled with foam around it that covored my whole eye face section. it was a decently tight foam but yeah.
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