Well, I personally think that.. Although this information is crucial, to provide evidence that with a wire mesh goggle you allow the chance of a BB to have debris get into your eyes, however this is something that was done from full auto, with a lot of rounds.
Personally I think that if you're playing the role of a sniper or someone who isn't on the frontlines, you should be allowed to wear these by any and all field coordinators, I have personally blasted my mesh goggles several times with my rifle, which is shooting exactly 550 FPS with a .2g bb. I've yet to see any sort of debris behind the actual goggle as well as seeing little to no dent. Note that I tested from point blank, which would mean in an actual game, a sniper would have to come up to me place his barrel point blank in my eyes, and pull the trigger.
Anyone who did that would already be looking for an ass kicking, reguardless of it was mesh or not.
My conclusion on this is that if you're playing CQB, or you hit the front lines. You should not be permitted to wear these. However, if you're playing the role of someone who rarely see's any sort of mass bb hosing, you should be good wearing these.
Mosin, remember that you tested your mask with your bbs. The crucial part here is that you were using your bbs. Different bbs fragment differently. Excels, for example, tend to be softer and blow apart when they hit trees or hard walls. Other bbs, whatever bbs you were testing, may not. You see where I'm going with this? Some folk may be using bbs that fragment a little easier, and may not even just be one specific brand. I've seen a lot of bbs blow apart when they hit something hard. That person might get a shot at you and hit you in the goggles. And his bb might fragment and get into your eyes. And since you can't regulate what bbs somebody carries with them to an op, you have to regulate the permissible eye protection.
Full auto isn't going to have any effect on which bbs break or not. A bb that's going to break on the mesh is going to break whether it has another bb coming in right behind it or not.
My conclusion is that your conclusion is based on very limited tests and thus, invalid, and in this case, wrong. If somebody was able to get bb shards through a set of mesh goggles under any realistic or probably game situation, then those goggles should never be allowed on the field.
As a Designated Marksman with a Ghillie suit and Maruzen APS-2 SV I still use goggles. I go threw what snipers go threw. Stationary positioning, high temperatures from ghillie suits, goggles being covered by boonies and hoods. But, as someone to uses a scope to hone in on targets I would like to keep my eyes. I use ESS Tactical Thermals and they are perfect. They dont fog on me, they are full seal lensed goggles. I dont want to mess around when it comes to my vision... its kind of important...
There's fragments from .12s that were going at ~200 fps. That might be what, 150 fps with a .2? Are you telling me that you think there's no way that you'll ever be engaged at a distance where a .2 might still be traveling at 150 fps? I wonder how long it takes a 400 fps .2 to slow down to that speed? I bet it's still going 300+ at 50 feet.
A .2 that's prone to breaking will break when it's traveling at a velocity that you may be hit with. That's just common sense. Snipers aren't gods. You're going to get shot at, and sometimes, it's even be close range.
Mesh goggles are dangerous in airsoft. If you see no harm in them, especially after reading this thread, you're dilusional.
It's just silly to assume that being a sniper means you'll never take heavy fire at close range. You never want to take it, sure, but it could happen. It could be as simple as an ambush as you hike back from the dead zone. Four guys open up on you from down in the ferns, pow, BBs to the face. You may be too cool for that ever to happen, but I'm not going to stake the success of my event on your assertion of cool.
GK Backup Jacko
"Zorak's like a Long Island Ice Tea of hate." -Xaos
Post by Betty Sue (Alphabet) on Feb 28, 2008 17:28:00 GMT -5
Mesh, although I'm sure can take almost any BB you throw at it, is still just that. Mesh. Fragments CAN get through, and thats the reasoning here. One tiny little micro-fragment of a BB getting onto your bare eye is going to ruin the WHOLE day for you. That little fucker is going to scratch the shit out of your cornea and hurt like a bitch. The chances of an entire BB getting into your goggles is slim to none - but if some kid is out there packin el-cheapo's and plants one in your goggles and it slivers into your eyes, you're done. Believe me, Mosin, I would like more than anything to wear mesh goggles, I despise fogging, but its just a risk I cant really afford to take right now.
Cornea Replacement Surgery: $1,000-3,000 A Pair of Non-Fogging, Low Profile Goggles: $50-80
Some things in life we just have to sacrifice. Do you want to risk yer eye-buhlls over a game? I think not. Trust me, I feel your pain, Mesh goggles are great, but just not worth it in the end.
I have had a "certain brand" of BB's shatter coming right out of the barrel. You could actually see several pieces flying out instead of a solid bb. They didn't fly as far as a solid bb, but that doesn't matter to me. Could have been a bad batch, initial production problems, who knows.
Point is- it can happen, bad bb's are out there. It is not worth risking your eyesight when there are other safer and reasonably priced solutions available.
Alright.. True that it could happen, this is known. However, where the hell do you get that I'm trying to come off as I'm too cool for normal goggles Zorak? All I'm saying is that with me playing the role of the guy not so much prone to a shitload of rounds flying by his head, I'm perfectly fine with what I got.
Also Knief, I suppose that you're calling a lot of Michigan's most resident snipers delusional, most of them shooting a long time more than I have, Such as Livonia and Oakey, who both use mesh goggles in the field. Also Doc uses them sometimes. I know that there is a chance of a freak accident happening, where a scenario as listed above is prone to happen. But I personally think that it's fine. I've also been to many events in Michigan wearing these, and have yet to be asked to take them off. Or put on a pair of full seals.
I've got full seals, but they fog way to much. These mesh ones do the job plenty fine, and the ones I have are woven a lot tighter than the mesh goggles that SWAT A4 has listed on his page, I'll take a picture when I get a chance. But everyone I have seen, event coordinator or not, has approved of me wearing them. Because I'm not on the frontlines and I'm not as likely to get a burst of bb's in the face as someone else.
Seriously.. I can get that you guys don't want to risk your eyes, and neither would I. But as a sniper, that carries around a good accumulation of gear, as well as having it under pretty much a big coat and snowpants, I can't tell you how hot it gets in those, even thermal goggles just can't hold up to the body heat produced from me in a ghillie suit.
Call me delusional, I don't see the big deal in wearing mesh goggles if you're not on the front lines, and your not playing something where full auto fire is common. I'll still continue to wear them to as many places as possible unless I'm told otherwise by the field coordinator/event hoster, then I have no problems switching to my Oakleys.
If it was really just your eyes at stake, I'd be fine with that. But it's not. As I constantly have to remind people around here, any safety incident is bad for the organizers of the game and the sport as a whole as well. It's bad press and more people wondering why we don't just ban fake guns. It's insurance companies worrying about the risks. It's someone who goes home from what should have been a fun weekend terrified that he just blinded someone.
Compared to those risks, I couldn't possibly care about your fogging problems.
GK Backup Jacko
"Zorak's like a Long Island Ice Tea of hate." -Xaos
Alright Zorak.. Looks like I can't even hold my own opinion here. I know what you're saying from all that stuff, I doubt the first thing I'd do is go home and call Fox 2 and tell them my story. So I think you're being a bit extreme on that, worst case scenario I'd get a little burst in my face.
I'm going to run this test again, because maybe it's just the mask I'm using. If I don't find any sort of debris in it, I'll continue using them where I do. But if it turns bad I'll just let you know my findings from it. I'll use G&G .2g bb's, cheap ass .12g bbs, and some flying color .3g bb's. I'll test tomorrow and have results tomorrow night.
Sorry Mosin, but I guess part of the problem is that you guys will spend $1000 to upgrade your sniper rifles and designated marksman platforms, but not $50 on goggles with thermal lenses? Not even ESS Turbocams for ~$100? Hell, I'm still buying more pairs of goggles to see what works for me, you can borrow a pair or two whenever the next time we play will be to see how well they work.
Last Edit: Feb 28, 2008 22:24:49 GMT -5 by Psychosis
THree brands of bbs isn't a good sampling, man. I use excel and Killer Beez bbs, and I've seen both of them fragment. Hell, I've seen both of them fragment on pop cans and come out of my PTW split in half. What happens when I shoot you and a couple of bbs hit your goggles? I shard up your eyes.
Your opinion here is about as valid as all of those noob snipers you like to put down when they talk about how good their utg L96 is. You're just plain wrong, and that's really all there is to it.