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Post by cqbr on Sept 12, 2013 15:09:10 GMT -5
Good on you guys for accepting the (Somewhat blunt) criticism and properly adapting to it. Are you guys gonna be open this weekend?
Also, do you have any info up about your private gatherings in regards to minimum attendance and the associated fees? Very interested in that info as several of us are interested in doing private games and are wondering how things will go with how many floors will be available to the private groups, etc.
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Post by tdtactical on Sept 12, 2013 15:37:07 GMT -5
Yes we can be there on the weekend as we dont have fixed hours yet. let us know what time you want to come and how many ppl, so we can be there.plus if your bringing your equipment or have to rent some?
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Post by tdtactical on Sept 12, 2013 15:49:01 GMT -5
The hours will be from 5pm-11pm Tues-Thurs by appointment only and 12pm-10pm Fri-Sun open play. .20g BB's only. That is our rule no exceptions. see website for more details. Changes occur periodically.
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Post by Da Vinci - Да Винчи on Sept 12, 2013 16:00:26 GMT -5
Okay, I can understand using .2 BB's for chronoing, which is fine, but why does it matter what we use on the field? A lot of people use AEG's that are tuned to heavier BB's, whether they're .25's or .28's or higher, so restricting them to a certain weight just screws them up. Plus, what's to say someone doesn't just use an old bag that say .2's and have whatever weight they want in it? There's really no rhyme or obvious reason to this. Also, $30-50 for admission is very steep, and while the venue does look very nice, that price could include a lobster dinner and champagne. You've got a great opportunity here, but a few policies should be updated.
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Post by Jazzman on Sept 12, 2013 16:13:48 GMT -5
Okay, I can understand using .2 BB's for chronoing, which is fine, but why does it matter what we use on the field? A lot of people use AEG's that are tuned to heavier BB's, whether they're .25's or .28's or higher, so restricting them to a certain weight just screws them up. Plus, what's to say someone doesn't just use an old bag that say .2's and have whatever weight they want in it? There's really no rhyme or obvious reason to this. Also, $30-50 for admission is very steep, and while the venue does look very nice, that price could include a lobster dinner and champagne. You've got a great opportunity here, but a few policies should be updated.
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Post by tdtactical on Sept 12, 2013 17:05:21 GMT -5
We limit it to .2g bb's because we feel that everyone should be playing on an even playing field, plus this limits our liability. Our facility is designed to be fast paced and it is set up great for CQB. .2g bbs are sufficient. We respect all of our customers and expect them to show us the same respect. Pricing is as follows: $24.99 field fee (all day access, feel free to bring your own .2g bb's). $30 with rental. The price goes up from there depending on the package selected. See website for pricing and what it includes. We don't offer lobster and champagne but we do offer a billiards lounge, video game rooms with Xbox, PS3, and a gun range for your enjoyment. Thank you
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ctres
New Member
Posts: 955
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Post by ctres on Sept 12, 2013 17:16:06 GMT -5
I'd say $25 is more than fair for what they are offering. This facility is several times larger than anything else around and it is clear that they have invested in making it top notch inside, so asking a bit more than other places is understandable.
I know that .2g bbs will bleed off their energy much quicker than a heavier bb and will do less damage upon impact in almost all cases. Depending on what the engagement distances are, I don't necessarily see .20s being a handicap anyways, though personallyI would prefer if the option for heavier weights (at least up to .25s) were left open. Oviously anyone using heavier bbs would still have to pass the chrono check using .20s.
Also, I could you guys clarify how much of the 77, 000 square feet are actually finished and playable? Are multiple floors capable of being included in a single game or is each floor a separate field?
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Post by Da Vinci - Да Винчи on Sept 12, 2013 18:00:40 GMT -5
You should worry more about FPS than what BB's a gun is shooting. The difference in energy a .20 BB has versus even a .40 has when they hit is practically impossible to measure, and if anything, shooting higher weight BB's will lessen the force behind it, as it's physically a heavier object to get moving. The only way to get it to have more energy behind it is to put an upgraded spring in it, which with .20's would shoot WAAAAAY over any reasonable CQB FPS rules. Most sniper rifles on here, whether spring or gas powered, shoot upwards of 450 FPS with a .20, some higher than 500. And using a .20 in that gun would be pointless, even in a close-quarters engagement. Putting a heavier BB in only lowers the FPS, by the standard rules of physics. So that same gun shooting 500 with a .20 probably shoots around 350 with a .40. Now, this is just a comparison to show the heavier BB's will actually cause less harm than a .20 will at any given FPS. This makes sense, and is proven by the fact that very few if any fields have restrictions on BB weights other than for chronoing. Refer to this graph, specifically the bottom part, if there's any confusion: tl;dr Worry about FPS, not BB weight. Heavier BB's = less of an impact, unless you're using a high FPS replica, which shouldn't even be allowed for CQB.
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Post by cqbr on Sept 12, 2013 18:01:09 GMT -5
Yes we can be there on the weekend as we dont have fixed hours yet. let us know what time you want to come and how many ppl, so we can be there.plus if your bringing your equipment or have to rent some? Are the weekends times where you aren't planning to normally be open once you have your schedule up? I know I wouldn't personally want to open the field up for a small group on a day I wasn't already open, so I don't want to do it to you guys. Also, should a group of 15-20 of us want to come out on a Saturday or Sunday and have a private game with our rules (No Full Auto, 350fps, etc. etc) how is that handled cost and logistics wise? As for the price debate in here, in my personal opinion $25 is probably the personal limit. That's dirt cheap to a non-airsofter who may be stumbling onto the facility for the first time, or for a parent who's dropping their kid off for an all day airsoft baby-sitting service, but for players and teams of guys here on the forum that would plan on coming out a few times a month throughout the whole winter, $25 would definitely be the limit. In regards to BB's, while .20's only is ok, going up to .25's would be absolutely ideal as that's pretty much the limit where most players here on the forum draw the line between indoor weights, and outdoor weights. Anyone using .28's or heavier indoors is just flushing their money down the drain. Same question about the available playing space for the field that ctres asked. I thought I remembered someone saying a couple of the floors were being reserved for private training and were off limits, but that could've been hearsay. How do you get from one floor to another while playing? Playable stairwells or elevators?
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ctres
New Member
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Post by ctres on Sept 12, 2013 18:41:21 GMT -5
Da vinci, that table doesn't really say anything about what I am saying. What it would need to illustrate my point is a column that compared muzzle energy in joules of various weights of bbs with how far they will go. Have you ever shot a decent AEG with .12s (I wouldn't necessarily advise this) and then shot the same AEG with .20s or even something heavier and noticed that the heavier BBs actually go farther despite the fact that they have more mass. This is because BBs cannot be considered as a projectile since they are significantly affected by air resistance. This means that lighter bbs can start off with more muzzle energy but have less energy upon impact than a heavier bb fired from the same gun. You also are not taking into account things like cylinder volume which can cause energy creep. To summarize, there are several ways in which you can have a gun that shoots within the limits but can contain more energy in the bb upon the point of impact than a .20 would. This isn't the place for this discussion, and I could go further, but I will stop here for now. I agree with your conclusion (that .25s or whatever would be fine) but not your method of reaching that conclusion, hence the long winded post.
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Hound
New Member
I always break my guns...
Posts: 654
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Post by Hound on Sept 12, 2013 19:02:19 GMT -5
Basically the heavier bbs have a lower FPS, but they hold that FPS and MORE energy for a greater amount of time. They also have a lot more energy when they hit you.
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Post by Myers on Sept 12, 2013 20:02:04 GMT -5
Yeah, I personally HIGHLY prefer .23s over .2s. I've noticed that my accuracy is much much more consistent with a higher weight BB. Allowing .2g-.25g would be much more ideal. I can't even remember the last time I bought a bag of .2s.... Probably was when I still had my CA M15A4, like 4 years ago.
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Post by Knief on Sept 12, 2013 22:08:16 GMT -5
Da Vinci,
Your physics is all wrong and backwards. When I have time,maybe tomorrow, I'll PM you. But basically you have the complete wrong idea of how FPS, bb weight, and pain/risk relate to each other.
Tdtactical,
The take away here is that, with the exception of significantly over volumed guns, the projectile weight doesn't impact the muzzle energy of the gun. If a gun shoots a .20g bb at 350 FPS, it has a muzzle energy of about 1.13 Joules. If you put any other weight bb in the gun, it will still have a muzzle energy of 1.13 Joules. The force exerted on the projectile determines its energy, not the mass of the projectile. We're not talking about allowing guns to shoot 350FPS with .25g or .28g bbs. We're talking about only allowing guns that chrono 350 with .20s, which ensures that they're putting out a safe muzzle energy for close engagements regardless of the bbs in the mag when it's on the field. Allowing heavier bbs would not increase the risk of injury to your players as long as you force players to chrono with .20g bbs.
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Novak
New Member
Posts: 220
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Post by Novak on Sept 12, 2013 22:21:23 GMT -5
Hey, did any one watch any of the videos on their Facebook page? They were shooting a rifle at a high rate of fire in a room in which nobody was wearing eyepro. Doesn't seem safe.
Sent from my Torque using proboards
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Post by Myers on Sept 12, 2013 22:30:26 GMT -5
Hey, did any one watch any of the videos on their Facebook page? They were shooting a rifle at a high rate of fire in a room in which nobody was wearing eyepro. Doesn't seem safe. Sent from my Torque using proboards Take it easy there, mate. It was pretty obvious that they weren't shooting at anyone, and were just testing the gun. Don't act like you put your eye pro on every time you plink around with your guns. Yeah, it is a bit unsafe, but EVERYONE does it. Anyone who says they put eye protection on every time they test fire a gun when not in an actual game is a very obvious liar. Our goal is to not hate/flame/put down these guys. Your post makes it seem like that is your intentions. The only problem I could see in this current situation is whether or not the public is around. I feel like these guys wouldn't allow this if there was a random out there who could very easily potentially sue due to an eye injury. Lets not jump the gun here and call these guys out without hearing the whole story first.
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