Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Mar 21, 2011 0:11:35 GMT -5
Ok, you don't own the GBB MP7 so you aren't familiar with all it's little quirks unique to it.
The Hop-up bucking material that KWA uses for their GBB hop up buckings is in fact made out of a proprietary material and it does in fact absorb oil and swells up. With the tight tolerances of the Mp7 this causes jams and what I mean by that is bbs will get backed up in the barrel because the hop up doesn't let them through and then one bb will get through and the gun will spew out all the bbs at the same time. Even though all KWA GBB hop-up buckings are made from this material the problem is predominately unique to the mp7. The KWA Staff Techs had said that over oiling is to blame. *The above statement has been confirmed by KWAUSA. If you go on the KWA forums browse through the MP7 section a little and you'll know what I'm talking about.
All of the normal problems with dirty barrels and oily hop up buckings can still happen and are easily taken care of with proper cleaning, but when the MP7 has a swelled hop up bucking no amount of cleaning can solve it and the hop up bucking needs to be either washed in grease fighting dish soap or replaced all together.
If you have to know, as I stated before, the swelled hop-up issue has happened to me and I was using bestek green gas and the oil the mp7 came with. Also, before the problem happened to me, I watched DANPH77's little youtube tutorial and did exactly what he recommended. I was keeping everything in tip top shape too. When I replaced it I compared the old and the new hop up and guess what... the old hop up was noticeably larger than the new replacement.
I had to disassemble my whole gun to replace my hop up bucking, which was extremely difficult because the mp7's inner workings are extremely complicated. So, excuse me for not wanting Rodrick to go through what I went through.
I do agree that the BCG should not be disassembled either, It requires special small sized Allen wrenches and when your putting it back together you have to use blue locktite on all the screws or they will come loose. There are some scary threads about it on the KWA forum.
I'm sorry about the terms usage. On the KWA forums a lot of people use different terms for the same thing and I get a little mixed up. As a matter of fact I have used Bolt Carrier Group(BCG) in the KWA forums before.
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Post by triggs on Mar 21, 2011 2:09:41 GMT -5
So you really want to play the "you don't own it card." Alright well that's fairly simple. Whether or not you like to believe it, a KWA MP7 is just like any other GBB. Internals may take different shapes and sizes but they function the same way. You have a great way of turn threads into a personal persecution....classy And who says I haven't WORKED on KWA MP7's before? Eh? Now onto the issue at hand. The KWA NS2/PTP hop up buckings are made of a urethane polymer, which is extremely porous and will soak up silicone but you'd have to be soaking bucking in a bath of silicone to get it to the point it jams. (All according to Spiggy of KWA USA). <-- something I was not aware of specifically but this explains the ability to "swell." Although it's swelling, they're are simply soaking up additional oil, not a normal bucking's practice. Then again I don't over lube shit. On the same pages of KWA forums however you have a number of bucking issues, but also a number of people with no problems. An additional factor is that the people with problems are split both ways, some have issues with propane + silicone, others have the same issues with strict green gas. Now you also say you followed Dan's tutorial in addition to using green gas. I will direct you back to one of my first posts. Now add this to additional lubrication done by Dan's technique and you are really in a hole. Every gas rifle user knows not to use green gas, as it ALWAYS causes issues due to over lubrication. Straight propane with only maybe 1/10 mags being green gas is reasonable way to avoid over lubing. This raises the question......how much silicon oil are you putting in your propane adapter. 1-2 drops is enough for at least 8 mags, usually you can do a few more if you're using a GBBR. And again I point back the just-as-numerous KWA MP7 users that have had breakdowns and only used green gas. The tolerances however cannot be any more tight in the KWA than another GBB or AEG. To maintain performance everything must be precision. This also leads to a possible design flaw in the MP7. Since we know that the barrel and the bucking are the same as any other NS2 SMG/pistol (which don't have these issues) and only *some* MP7's have issues then it's logically a problem with the MP7 design itself and/or quality control. What jumps out reading the various threads is the time it takes till the bucking swells to the point it jams. Most common reports appears to be around 30+ mags (minimum 600 rounds). Which if not properly maintained is sure to cause issues anyways. Which I again stress the impact of green gas on GBBR's. I believe it was "Thevainguard" on ASF that also mentioned it's the usage of full auto that shortens the period of time it takes to soak the bucking, plausibly it's releasing larger amounts of silicone through the system than a single shot would like most GBB's. EDIT: Aha found it www.airsoftforum.com/board/WARNING-KWA-MP7-users-t174756.htmlSo possible fixes become. 1. OEM replacement from KWA 2. Washing with water/grease fighter 3. Acetone It's commendable that you're trying to help. But it's not helping anyone with the constant information that is wrong, incorrectly quoted, misunderstood, or incomplete. Seriously you have to understand what you have before you can help others, the fact there is any misunderstandings is due to the personal misunderstanding of the information you have, and you also seem to not know which story to tell...one post says propane is the blame for the bucking swelling, the next says the silicone, next ones says the green gas is at fault there aren't any propellants left! I will freely admit to anyone I don't know everything, anyone that does is lying out their ass. The material makeup of the bucking is different than my experience, and apparently more random in quality/more susceptible to failure than the ones I've gotten to work with. However, flat out wrong information that only serves to accomplish what you're saying you're trying to avoid. EDIT fixed info on KWA bucking but the original points from page 1 stand.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Team Edwards, I wish I could quit you
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Mar 21, 2011 14:30:06 GMT -5
Thanks for clearing it up. But, on the KWA forums people have stated that the cause could be a mix between over oiling, using green gas, and propane use.
I have ran into the problem, but the issue for me is solved and I use better maintenance practices now.
Also the KWA MP7 does not use the exact same NS2 system that other KWA GBBs use. It is a slightly different system and the hop up unit itself could definitly have an inherent design flaw to create such a problem. The Hop up bucking is also designed in a slightly different way than the other ns2 GBBs. Because of the flaw one must be extra careful, so this problem dosen't come up.
For me I must have ran over 2000rds through it before the problem occurred. It is a common issue and I just wanted to overemphasize the need to not get oil on the bucking.
This problem happens to a lot of people and taking the preventative measure of trying to not get oil on the bucking could prevent the issue to occur or keep it happening long enough for the bucking to be used through it's normal life span.
I'm sorry if I seem to arbitrarily change information when I post. It is rather hard for me to express information over the Internet. I get realy arbitrary when I'm discussing somthing back and forth at such distant intervals. If we were face to face discussing the matter I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be arguing and we would have worked it out in a few minutes. I am not confritational in person. We are both really only trying discuss proper maintence and I completly agree with you for the most part. Though I got my terms mixed up and used arbitrary information which caused confusion.
I'm sorry I used the owner card, but it seemed like you were ignoring the issue with the hop up. Dans youtube post did in fact have some misinformation in it, mainly him recommending to drip oil on the rocket valve. This can definitely cause the hop up issue over time if someone includes that step in the routine maintence of their mp7. I was just trying to explain that dripping oil onto the rocket valve is a really dumb idea.
Well anyway, it is bad for the hop-up bucking and barrel to have oil in it anyway. The problem that over oiling causes with the hop-up in the MP7 simply provides more justification to keep the hop-up clean and dry. But, if the problem does come up the suggested fixes you stated are correct.
I've been using green gas a lot lately, but after reading what you said I'm going to switch back to propane and use green gas for maintenence. I already have two propane adapters, so I think it's about time to get another can of propane.
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Post by triggs on Mar 22, 2011 19:46:23 GMT -5
The only people that can actually prove the relation between propane + silicone and KWA buckings or strictly propane or green gas and KWA buckings is KWA itself or some very trustworthy users. Which KWA forums do NOT have for the most part. The threads that are there are virtually all speculation and not fact. Again you always confuse fact with speculation and/or untested/unproven theory.
Now you're taking the statement in the wrong context. the MP7 NS2 system is fundamentally and functionally the same as the other NS2 products. However, like any other product they use different size parts/design changes. i.e. The KWA M1911 PTP is not identical to the KWA M9 PTP. While they are both PTP/NS2 systems the parts are modified to fit each unique design. Fundamentally though they are the same, as well as the same as the MP7. The buckings actually are the same, but the nub is different.
Avoiding getting oil on the bucking is virtually impossible as, as long as the propellant is touching it so will the oil.
I wouldn't say it happens to a lot of people, as much as it's simply being reported by the people that have had issues. It's pretty simple, those with problems will tell about it, those that don't won't say anything. There are a couple variables such as those that say they love their rifle and those that are smart and google a fix before whining.
The jet/rocket valve is a moving part so it could use maintenance, if you follow the theory that any moving part needs lubrication. However, because green gas or propane mixed with silicone already has enough lubrication, additional oil dripped into the valve is unnecessary. Normally this wouldn't be much of a problem if it wasn't for the bucking or hop up design (or both) of the MP7.
Propane is a much more convenient propellant than green gas, it's cheaper and virtually a chemical match to green gas. The only real difference is the silicone oil. It's proven without doubt that raw propane is not the cause of the MP7 bucking expanded as many KWA products are run on propane with the same buckings (and bucking material). My own M9 included. So this brings into focus the design of the MP7 being at fault, why is an excellent question, and without detailed testing it's impossible to identify. What I find personally odd is the amount of oil getting through, as I've never see that much oil on any bucking. I think it's down to individual users being at fault, you can't guarantee every person is using too much, too little, or just the right amount of oil.
As stated, with GBBR's in particular very little oil is required for general operation. The flip side is to regularly field strip the rifle and clean it. With green gas you don't have to, but that's a poor idea anyways, so regular maintenance is always a better plan.
As for posting habits. Your karma might be a lot better if you thought and wrote things more carefully before you hit that Post Reply button. This sounds like a joke but it's dead serious. Think before posting. What will help your case would also to simply post a link to what you're trying to talk about. It's not a great idea, but better off than misquoting.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Team Edwards, I wish I could quit you
'Opreptio Et Internicivus Strigoi viu'
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Mar 22, 2011 22:41:50 GMT -5
www.kwausa.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2531www.kwausa.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3716My conclusion of using minimal oil is based off of what Allizard and Spiggy have stated in their various posts on the issue. Since they don't recommend propane I wouldn't use it for the 45days that the warranty covers. Of course oil is going to get on the hop up bucking anyway, but an owner can minimize the amount of oil reaching the hop up by not over lubing anything and going through maintenance procedure regularly after each use. Since using green gas or mixed propane will lubricate the rocket valve adequately, any further oiling of the part is over oiling. The valve only requires a thin coat of oil to be applied. In my opinion dripping oil onto the part is over oiling. The excess oil that drips off the part is just going to travel to other parts of the gun, mainly the barrel and hop-up bucking. The MP7 operates more like a GBB Rifle rather than a GBB pistol. It does function better when the parts are cleaned and lubed lightly on a regular basis. My method of maintaining my MP7 without over lubricating: When I take down my Mp7 I clean off the Bolt carrier group. Then I wipe down the inside of the inner frame(part#52). After that I wipe down the mag well too. I then slide the cylinder(part#23) to the extended position to access the main seal(part#31). I use a Q-tip to wipe out any dust and oil and then I reapply a thin coat of oil to the main seal with another Q-tip. I then try to clean the hammer group(parts#71-87) located inside the inner frame as much as I can and then I apply a small amount of grease to the moving parts in the hammer group. I then clean and lightly grease the side and top groves of the BCG. After I completed those steps I reassemble the gun and clean the barrel. The side groves of the BCG fit on a track that is inside the inner frame. I do not grease the track because I don't want to use an excessive amount of grease. The grease in the groves of the BCG is adequate and I don't see signs of wear on either of the parts. If the cylinder nozzle is sticking in the entrance to the hop up chamber: I first clean the entrance to the hop-up chamber with a q-tip, then I clean the cylinder nozzle with another q-tip and apply a small amount of oil to it with another Q-tip. This clears up the issue. I will also use propane for general use. I will use Green gas for maintenance purposes only. I generally have my mags filled with green gas when I'm storing them and will use it for the first fill up of all my mags before a game. Would you deem my methods of maintenance as adequate?
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Post by triggs on Mar 23, 2011 18:50:23 GMT -5
Propane is of course "dryer" than green gas, however the only real issue is it drying out the rubber orings and seals in the mags and firing system. If you never oil the mags or clean/oil/maintain the raw propane will dry things out. That said, KWA rubber has to be some of the best I've ever worked with, if it does dry out, it's extremely easy to revive with a good soak in silicone. As a comparison WE rubber o-rings are always drying out and even a full soak in silicone doesn't always fix them. KWA has never endorsed propane, but besides drying out the rubber seals it's not going to do any particular damage. It is worth mentioning propane is a tad more powerful than green gas, but a max of 5FPS extra isn't particularly dangerous. As they mention though, the question of the quality of silicone oil everyone uses is a huge factor and could very well be the SINGLE fault for everyone's issue. I'm personally extremely careful that the oil I use is 100% silicone, but there are plenty of other brands out there that aren't 100% so this could very well be why there are a number of reported issues, but not everyone with problems. As it goes, the KWA oil included with their guns I find to be quite thick, personally I avoid using it in any places except something like a BCG or slide rails. I use 100% silicone oil for the seals and areas like the loading nozzle/cylinder. Some of the best stuff for BCG's and heavy moving parts like slides is "Super Lube" www.chaosfab.com/product/accessories/misc/superlube.jpg100% silicone so it's perfectly safe for slides, and the full bolt carrier (not the cylinder). As far as your particular maintenance practices, they're very thorough, which is good. I would highly recommend getting a tube of thicker 100% silicone oil or grease (like Super Lube) or even the 100% silicone R/C car shock oil (weights from 10-50 available at hobby shops). Which is very good for areas like the BCG rails. This avoids things like oil dripping in bad places as the grease is thick enough not to drip, but provides the proper lubrication. I would be careful with using q-tips as whenever I've used them, some of the threads can be left behind, which may or may not be bad, but it's more professional not to leave that sort of thing to possibly gun things up. I prefer propane, just be careful mixing in the silicone oil. 1. Make sure it is indeed 100% silicone 2. Use it very sparingly, try 1 drop for every 8 mags and if that seems to provide adequate lube for the o-rings but not enough to cause issues with the hop up. If it doesn't test 2, but don't use more than that. I would say green gas is fine to use, though as a few have mentioned across a few forums, it might be a good idea only to use green gas every 10 mags. So 9 mags of green gas, then the 10th one is filled with green gas. If you store them with green gas that's not bad either. One of the biggest reasons I hate gas guns is the amount of maintenance they require. My M9 PTP gets really finicky if I don't clean it every other game, so I generally clean it every game. Many of the other GBB's I've owned/worked on require the same. I had a WE SCAR-L GBBR a few months back, and it definitely required cleaning/relubing after every game (day).
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Team Edwards, I wish I could quit you
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Mar 23, 2011 22:13:05 GMT -5
I do have some silicone grease that I to grease the grooves on my BCG. I just made a typo again and forgot to change it. I just made a small edit to the section of my last post pertaining to the BCG's grooves.
The Kwa silicone oil is kind of thick, so I also bought a bottle of Madbull Ultimate Silicon Oil, but I haven't started using it yet. As for the grease I'm using, I will definitely have to look into buying a tube of super lube. The silicon grease I'm using isn't the best quality, so a better grease would definitely be helpful.
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