fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jun 8, 2011 21:41:57 GMT -5
Posted this up over on ASF, but thought I would ask some experts here as well. As some of you may remember, I had a thread on a "winter project" (here: airsoftsniper.proboards.com/index....ay&thread=1841) that I had posted a while ago. Well it ended up never happening, as I switched to another pistol. However, I am back, and ready to attack another pistol again, as I have some extra cash coming in. This thread will log all of my work, plus allow you to offer me some info that may help me with my project. I am planning on slowly building a GBB, similar to how I built my primary rifle. Start with it in stock form, and use it, slowly upgrading as parts wear down or I feel need some better quality parts. Choosing the pistol: This is probably the most important part. I had been planning on getting myself a KJW glock, as I found one in stock at evike.com. However, I checked to see how many extra parts (replacement/upgrades) were available, and so far I have concluded that they are scarce. This is a huge CON for this GBB. On the contrary, I am also considering a 1911, a GBB that has numerous parts that most likely will always be in stock, as numerous companies offer the parts on their sites. I do not exactly have a large sum of money to buy a TM at this time. However, similar to my primary, the UTG mk96, I plan on upgrading a clone GBB slowly. While I here the TM's have a great hop up design and are great GBB's, I want something I can work with and buy new parts for. Seems silly, but I want to upgrade it, as this will serve as a nice project for me, plus I can slowly dump some cash in while STILL being able to get out to a game. That means I need money for mags, bbs, etc. and not just the gun itself. I am leaning towards a WE 1911 of some sort. I am not sure which one yet, but it has to be one that has numerous parts available that will be ready for me when I need them. I also saw they have the base O-rings in case mine were to dry, crack, wear down, etc. That is also a huge plus. So let me know what kind of recommendations you have. I want these to be 1911 models, so post here what you got. So far, after minimum research, I have come across a few models that I am considering: www.airsoftpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45_252&products_id=32632: Still have to research part compatibility for this model. Not sure what it will work with, but I assume its like most other 1911 and takes the same parts as the other models. www.airsoftpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45_252&products_id=32484: By far, my most favorite looking model. I believe that it fits in the "large selection of parts available" category. Not only that, but its one sexy piece. www.airsoftpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45_252&products_id=32209: The MEU is one of my favorites. It seems very similar to my old 1911, and is something I would not mind getting a hold of again. www.airsoftpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_45_252&products_id=27790: Out of stock, but if it comes back, this might slip up to the top of the list. Now granted, this is not to be considered JUST a which gun thread. I plan to work a lot on this over the summer and would like to post my results up here, so others can comment and offer some advice on the topic. The "Choosing Gun" part is just step one of many. Any advice is appreciated. I checked out Miles' guides and will be referring to them often.
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Post by Knief on Jun 9, 2011 8:26:09 GMT -5
First things first, all of these guns are the same internally. Not like how all TM AEGs have pretty much the same performance. But like, every part that plays a role in performance is identical between these guns. It makes absolutely no difference which one you pick, except you'll have to use different mags (or if you swap out the main spring housing or grip safety) for the 4.3 that you picked out because it has a shorter frame. That's it. So if those four are your only options, then whichever one you like the looks of better is the one you should get. They'll all take the same upgrade parts (again, with the exception of the externals and mag on the 4.3), so you can do the same things to any of them.
However, I'd like to steer you away from WE for this project. GBBs aren't like AEGs, and they're especially not like spring rifles. On AEGs and spring rifles, you can force them to work with a little tuning and a good shim job. The upgrade parts out there make the guns shoot harder, more accurately or with a faster ROF, and then to reinforce the gun once you've made those upgrades. Dozens of companies make thousands of parts, and if you cobble enough together, you can replace just about everything in an AEG or bolt action rifle and make a quality rifle out of a shitty clone. GBBs are way too finicky for that. Their upgrade parts are meant to try to balance out performance or strengthen the slide and frame (some are just pointless, like high flow valves).
If you start with a mediocre GBB, you won't be able to do much to make it less mediocre, and that's because GBBs aren't bad for the same reason that AEGs aren't bad (or at least, their problems manifest differently). With a GBB those fit and finish problems don't result in a replaceable stripped gear or sear, they result in poor gas efficiency, a slide that jams when you tilt the gun one way or the other, and a hammer that can't hit the valve hard enough to release the gas. What you get when you buy a mediocre GBB is a GBB that will always be mediocre. These sorts of problems might work themselves out if you replace enough parts and your replacement parts all work well together. But that's a big might, and would almost certainly come only after you've replaced the slide and frame.
If you want to build a good GBB, you really have to start with a good GBB. Last I saw the TM MEU was going for about $170, which isn't unreasonable for what is most certainly one of the best 1911s on the market. I know it's a bit more than the WEs you were looking at, but believe me, it'll be more than worth it in the end.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jun 9, 2011 9:03:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the response Knief. That makes a lot of sense. I was unaware of how different the GBB actually was. In that case, going with a more quality brand is something that I will consider now. The TM MEU was something I had been looking at but never seriously considering. I do not have to use propane, and could switch to duster gas if necessary, but it seems like more of a hassle than anything. And since we are throwing out higher quality brands here, the TM High Capa is another choice. They have a crap load of parts available and was something I had been looking at as well. The thing that turned me away from the MEU was that it appeared NOT to be compatible with the high capa parts. I had trouble finding a good amount of MEU upgrades. Correct me if I am wrong though. Now I do not plan to dish a lot of money into it ASAP, but I like knowing I have parts at the ready in case something was to go wrong. Again, thanks for the response, this is something I had not known about. Here is the TM version of the pistol I very much like: www.airsoftatlanta.com/Airsoft_Tokyo_Marui_4_3_Desert_Warrior_Tan_gas_gun_p/70519.htmBeen researching part compability, and from what I have gathered, most 1911 parts are interchangable, similar to how the WE 1911's were. Therefore, with this pistol (linked above) being my favorite looking of the bunch, and 1911 parts being compatible, this might just be the pistol I was looking for. Any thoughts?
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Post by Knief on Jun 9, 2011 9:18:34 GMT -5
The TM Hicapa isn't really the greatest gun. It's not bad, and it's better than the WE 1911s for sure. But it came about right before TM really turned their GBB game around. See, TM used to be known for making GBBs that performed adequately and looked kinda meh. Then, with the release of their 1911A1, they decided, "fuck being middle of the pack, let's run the table." And from that point onward, all of their GBBs have been pretty much the best available in that model range. But they never went back and revamped their older models. So, for example, the KSC M9 is still heads and shoulders above the TM M9 because the M9 is one of TMs older models. It shoots well, but looks and feels like a plastic toy, whereas the KSC shoots better and looks and feels fantastic. The moral of this story is, if you're buying a TM GBB, buy one of the more recent models. If you want an older model, somebody else probably makes it better. The Hicapa was the model that TM put out right before the 1911A1. It was good, but still not great. The MEU, however, came out well after the 1911A1, and it's fan-fucking-tastic. If you want a 1911 to upgrade (and don't want to spend $350(!) on a WA as a base gun), the TM MEU is the way to go. I don't know where you're looking for upgrade parts, but believe me, there are tons out there. I'd say that the TM MEU is easily in the top 5 most upgradeable pistols (TM Hicapa, and WAs would give it a run). I'm on my work's wifi network right now, and most airsoft retailers are blocked so I can't give you links at the moment. But I'd check out the big boys in Hong Kong like www.uncompany.com, www.wgcshop.com and www.redwolfairsoft.com for upgrade options. I know that ordering from HK can be kind of scary, but you don't run the risk of customs seizures on parts because you don't have to worry about orange paint or trademark violations. Shipping usually isn't even all that much, as long as you're not buying each piece individually. But if you still don't want to order from HK, a lot of smaller retailers (the ones with good customer service) will special order stuff for you. If you see some parts that you like (and they can be found in stock somewhere), I'd email places like Empire Airsoft or AirsoftSmith and ask if they can put in a special order for the part for you. I've had a lot of good luck getting the smaller MI and OH retailers to help me out with stuff like that. Also, you can probably run the MEU on Propane and be fine. The older TMs have had more problems with higher pressure gasses than the new ones have. You're still running a higher risk of breakage, just like putting an M120 in an AEG, but it's not going to blow up in your hands on the first shot or anything. Besides, if you do crack the slide, you just found yourself a reason to buy a metal slide a little early.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jun 9, 2011 9:28:44 GMT -5
Man, I am learning about stuff I had no clue about before. This all make perfect sense, and is really a big help, much appreciated.
Glad to here the MEU is very upgradeable. Its not like I am going to dish money into it ASAP, but its something I will consider down the road, especially over the winter months when I have some time.
I will run her on propane and hopefully by the time she wears down, I will be able to purchase a metal slide.
Now a lot of people seemed to complain that the TM mags are pretty crappy. However, based on what you said, with the newer models being able to handle the higher pressure gases, would buying extra TM mags be a smart thing to do? I have some experience with leaky mags so I can fix them up, but would prefer going with a mag that isn't going to leak right out of the box.
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Post by Knief on Jun 9, 2011 9:52:03 GMT -5
Who said TM mags were crappy? I've never heard a complaint about them, except maybe a quibble about leaks on the MK23 mags. There might be cheaper options, but I'd trust the TM mags over any clone mags that might happen to fit.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jun 9, 2011 10:01:51 GMT -5
I can't remember the link but a few guys were going off about how they leaked like no other. I am not worried about price as long as the TM mags are solid. I have had no experience with TM's, so I have simply had to go by what I read. Thanks for being able to set things straight for me. With a $40 price tag on these mags I wanted to make sure I was getting quality.
I will post here with updates and such as soon as I receive the pistol. Time to start saving a little bit more than I had first thought. ;D
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Post by Knief on Jun 9, 2011 10:16:20 GMT -5
I would ignore those guys. TM mags are most definitely solid.
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Post by Mles on Jun 9, 2011 10:28:29 GMT -5
I am going to echo most of what Knief said, but having two opinions is always strong.
I am going to have to disagree with Knief on one point - choosing TM's 1911 GM/MEU over the High-Capa. I believe the High-Capa, especially the latest runs, are some of the most skirmishable/upgradeable GBB's out there. Specifically, the magazine is much larger than the 1911's, this will allow better gas efficiency which is very important when you play in cold weather conditions. Also, upgrading the High-Capa is so incredibly easy and CHEAP. A new metal slide for a High-Capa is like $55 from WGC. Basically if you work the hell out of the High-Capa with propane/green gas and manage to crack the slide all you have to do is buy a new slide and perhaps some upgraded springs. You can also do some really fun things with High-Capa's for relatively cheap. Optics, 50 rounders and threaded barrels are all pretty affordable upgrades that can make your pistol a lot of fun. The High-Capa is a very strong choice for a project because upgrades are plentiful and cheap and the magazine design will suit Michigan weather conditions better than a skinny 1911 magazine.
Although, the High-Capa is ugly. Most people prefer the 1911 design, including me. TM's 1911 is one hell of a gun, and I although I don't find it as strong as a base as the High-Capa, it's still one of the best GBB's out there. Honestly, depending on what direction you go, the benefits of the High-Capa I pointed out earlier might no be relevant to you at all. TM 1911 magazines can still get the job done, although once the weather starts getting colder, you may have to run real cap's (which is actually pretty fun). The TM 1911 has enormous upgrade potential. The upgrades may not be as cheap as the High-Capa, but they are still very affordable (WA upgrade parts are stupidly expensive..).
Do not get a clone. In the end you will never satisfied with it. IF you have to, buy a used TM. It will serve as a far better project base than a WE or KJW. One thing people always point out with WE is that they are "full-metal". When you compare the metal of a WE to a the metal of quality metal kit for a TM pistol such as a PGC, NOVA or even Guarder kit, WE can't hold a match to the quality of the latter. I did find one decent thing about WE. Back when I had a Guarder Kit'ed TM 1911 I found that the stock TM 1911 magazines did not get many shots off (maybe 7-10 max), but a WE 1911 magazine would cycle around 18 shots. The problem was though that the WE magazine started leaking almost immediately. It was a very easy fix though, all I had to do was seal up the fill valve with some teflon tape and loctite. In the end, the WE magazine performed better than the TM magazine.
In the end, buy a TM 1911. The gun looks awesome and the upgrade potential is just what you are looking for.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jun 9, 2011 12:59:34 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Miles, your post was very interesting and all of it made perfect sense. I like the fact that the Metal slides can be had for roughly $55. Makes it less of a "worry" for the plastic slide to give out. By real caps do you mean only loading roughly 8-10 rounds or..? Either way, it sounds like fun. I want to get a "new" one rather than a used one. I have no problem paying the extra cash and want to know what I have in my hands has only been used by me. While it will be more expensive, its just something that I want. This pistol will hopefully be my last (not in a bad way, haha), and plan on taking great care of her. I appreciate all your help. I am going to think about the MEU VS High Capa and see which one I am going to get. Its not a matter of which one is better, just which one will suit me best, although from what it appears, both would be solid choices over the WE's I had listed above.
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Post by Mles on Jun 9, 2011 13:46:12 GMT -5
And as always...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Keep it simple.
Edit: Real capacity for a standard 1911 .45 magazine is 7 rounds.
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Post by Fugazi on Jun 18, 2011 6:07:05 GMT -5
And as always...if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Keep it simple. Edit: Real capacity for a standard 1911 .45 magazine is 7 rounds. Plus, one in the chamber. I've been looking for a new sidearm, and I've been thinking TM 1911. This thread just solidified that pretty well for me. I wouldn't mind having another KWA USP-C either, but I too want to upgrade my gun.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jun 20, 2011 20:56:03 GMT -5
Glad the thread helped you out Fugazi. Also, I am not sure if it is just my lucky day, but I am about to snag a TM MEU + two non leaky mags + adapter + Silicon oil for $75. That is one hell of a deal.
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Post by Mles on Jun 21, 2011 7:33:33 GMT -5
Make sure it is not a WE.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jun 25, 2011 16:25:54 GMT -5
Well, got the package today, and Miles, it is indeed a TM. Plastic slide is yuck, but will run propane with it til it dies.
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