Vitalis
New Member
I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
|
Post by Vitalis on Oct 1, 2002 15:46:01 GMT -5
oh my god can we just have them not count so that people dont get all pissy about "oh that didnt hit me" I think riccochets are just going to confuse people even more than if they dont count. Derick, Here is the deal though on what you are worried about. Those of us on this side of the state use ricochet rules at every event, without a problem, without argument. You are worried about people using bank shots in an indoor setting. I can see that and agree with it. But in outdoor settings, I am worried about coming across another unchivalrous asshole who was covered in my BBs but chose to ignore them because they hit a twig on the way in. Hell, another point in the ricochets count argument could easily follow this. If you do not count ricochets, you have to know whether or not that BB that hit you was a straight clean hit or a ricochet. If you take all hits, regardless of ricochets, you are dead when a BB hits you, period. Basically, the only difference between for ricochets and against ricochets is the assholes. Either the ones who get pelted by BBs but don't count them cause they hit a twig, or the assholes who try to do bank shots. What we need is an asshole rule and then this wouldn't matter. -Vitalis
|
|
derick
New Member
For a good time call - 867-5309
Posts: 566
|
Post by derick on Oct 1, 2002 15:49:09 GMT -5
i just think that it would be easier to not count riccohets because then we wont have to argue about it during or afterwards. I respect youre strive for realism as so do I, But the fact of the matter is that these "bullets" are not real. There is ABSOLUTLEY NO WAY to make this sport 100% real. That is our problem, we are trying to make it as real as possible that we are forgetting the capabilities of airsoft.
Here are my pros and cons of riccochets Why we should have them count 1. Good for the realism efffect. The bbs would simulate real ammunition physics 2 you can bust people that are in a hard to get place. bouncing shots off of walls and "accidental" hits 3. The physics of real bullets to airsoft bs wuold be cool
Why riccochets are bad 1.CQB will be nothing but a live game of png wih eveeryone making bank shots behind the bunkers and it will be rediculously unrealistic. 2. MASS confusion not konwing if certain things count as OUT or what. 3. people claiming that they saw a bb bounce and hit someone and the other not even knowing that they were even touched 4. Many people would cheat and not consider riccochets as counting(even if mia enforces the rule)
well thats what i see so we can disuss it further
|
|
Vitalis
New Member
I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
|
Post by Vitalis on Oct 1, 2002 15:56:10 GMT -5
Here are my pros and cons of riccochets Why we should have them count 1. Good for the realism efffect. The bbs would simulate real ammunition physics 2 you can bust people that are in a hard to get place. bouncing shots off of walls and "accidental" hits 3. The physics of real bullets to airsoft bs wuold be cool Why riccochets are bad 1.CQB will be nothing but a live game of png wih eveeryone making bank shots behind the bunkers and it will be rediculously unrealistic. 2. MASS confusion not konwing if certain things count as OUT or what. 3. people claiming that they saw a bb bounce and hit someone and the other not even knowing that they were even touched 4. Many people would cheat and not consider riccochets as counting(even if mia enforces the rule) well thats what i see so we can disuss it further Edited because I am an idiot... Ok, as for why counting ricochets is bad. Your number two is right out. If it hits, you are dead. Same for number three, we have the "not feel it" scenario even in direct shots, so this wouldn't really heighten anything more. And your number four, people are cheating already. Mike specifically said at Fallen Angel that a ricochet does not count, but to use some common sense in that. If the BB drives through your cover and strikes you anyway you should prolly take it. I know of one person who didn't follow that rule. Now, as to your "why ricochets should count" list. Number 2 confuses me. How would this let you bust people in hard to reach cover? Discounting the idiocy of pool bank shots around corners of course. -Vitalis
|
|
derick
New Member
For a good time call - 867-5309
Posts: 566
|
Post by derick on Oct 1, 2002 16:09:14 GMT -5
Ok here is my skinny on this issue, My 2 main reasons for not having them is so that we dont have so much confusion and arguments. There would simply be a lot less hassle if we dont enforce it. thats al for me
|
|
|
Post by Knief on Oct 1, 2002 16:14:32 GMT -5
i'm really not seeing what arguments there would be? if it is enforced, then there wouldn't be any more cheating than there is already. Everybody else would abide by the riccochet rule and countany bb that hits them from any direction.
The ONLY exception that's feasible acctually happened not too long ago at a FLAG event. i was shooting at newman and a bb rolled on the ground about as fast as a bug would walk to his foot. we decided to let that one go.
|
|
|
Post by Icarus on Oct 1, 2002 16:24:41 GMT -5
People will ALWAYS find a way to be bitches. Whether or not we enforce more or less rules, i'm sure some smart ass is going to exploit. My theory is that we kill everyone that whines via crucifix... or throw them out, which ever works. I guess it all boils down to the line between fun and communism. People don't play airsoft to get mad...
Yes, I realize I make no real standpoint
|
|
derick
New Member
For a good time call - 867-5309
Posts: 566
|
Post by derick on Oct 1, 2002 16:26:50 GMT -5
nice standpoint strade, i dont think there is anymore i can say because i feel its not going anywhere
|
|
Vitalis
New Member
I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
|
Post by Vitalis on Oct 1, 2002 16:29:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I would say it is a bit of an impasse, considering I don't see how using it would cause more confusion. Should actually be less, if it hits you, you are dead. That's cool though, to each his own. -Vitalis p.s. I have a feeling that this is going to be something that is left up to the event organizers. Much like Fallen Angel, where MiA rules were followed except one. The ricochet rule...
|
|
derick
New Member
For a good time call - 867-5309
Posts: 566
|
Post by derick on Oct 1, 2002 16:32:46 GMT -5
haha i think we just solved it right there , Vitalis, youre a #%$^&^@ gienus!!!!! leav it to the hosters
|
|
|
Post by DevilDog on Oct 1, 2002 16:36:44 GMT -5
That's fine.. But we need to include a dislaimer in the rules somewhere that states that... Kinda like "Rule 42: the event organizer has the right to impose other rules that are to be followed by all players at all times. These rules will be posted (or sent) to all players at least one week before the event to allow for familiararity."
Just a suggestion...
|
|
|
Post by frostee on Oct 1, 2002 16:56:40 GMT -5
My feeling is that the ricochet rule and gun hit rule should stand as they were originally proposed. And that is, ricochets are valid hits and gun hits are not valid hits. Ricochets happen in real life and so do gun hits, but a gun hit isn't fatal. Of course a ricochet off of a gun hit may be. If you read carefully though, you will see that Viking and I put the caveat of "sufficiently mobile bb" in the rule. This means that a bb with very little energy having just bounced off the tree, off the rock, through the brush and off the bunny's head would not count. "Sufficiently mobile" is a bb that is still moving at speed that let's you know you've been hit. We can discuss "sufficiently mobile" semantics, but if I were in a situation where a bb ricocheted and hit me, and I knew that I had been hit by a bb, I would call myself out. When in doubt I err on the side of the shooter and I hope the shooter would do the same for me. We are playing a game of honor and honesty after all.
Edit: There is also a guideline about the event organizers rule superceding the MiA rules.
|
|
|
Post by DevilDog on Oct 1, 2002 16:58:49 GMT -5
I concur
|
|
Echo
New Member
Posts: 18
|
Post by Echo on Oct 1, 2002 17:58:52 GMT -5
If this is about realism, then here are a few points to ponder. If you shoot a tree 99% of the time the bullet is going to lodge into the mass of the tree. The only time you really get redirection is if you hit the outer portion of the tree. For an example, If I was prone behind a tree and I left a part of my body exposed (boot, shoulder, etc) which was hit by a shot "glancing" off the tree I would call myself out. Now If I was behind the tree and rounds were spraying off the tree to the side or behind me, I myself would have a hard time taking that as a hit. Those rounds would be lodged in the trees IMHO. As for the guy that was standing behind some twigs, thats just plain garbage. I'm sure Mike would agree that he was abusing the rule, if that was indeed what he was basing his "not hit" on.
Indoors is a tricky situation. Lets look at this from a realistic perspective too. In airsoft you can visually follow your round as it travels from your gun to its target. Basicly you could walk your rounds into the target area. In real life thats just not possible outside of tracers. Real rounds behave differently depending on thier type (hollowpoint, FMJ, etc). I would say it would be difficult at best to cause your round to ricochet where you wanted it to. Think about it, your bullet is impacting a solid object causing it to deform, do you really think it will consistantly redirect, and with lethal force? What about other factors such as recoil? I find the thought of someone using the "pool" type tactic as silly. It may sound arrogant, but I would refuse to play if such tatics were counted and considered "realistic."
|
|
|
Post by LaStrade on Oct 1, 2002 19:38:41 GMT -5
Yeh... what he said
|
|
WTS-Mike
New Member
Preachah Man
Former Owner of Wolverine Tactical Supply and general all around nice guy
Posts: 577
|
Post by WTS-Mike on Oct 1, 2002 23:25:36 GMT -5
Wow.......you guys were listening I realized after that breifing that I mispoke according to The MiA rules. In fact, I prolly shoulda read them aloud.....(20/20 hindsight) Outdoors I agree with vitalis that a ricochet is a hit. No question! The Gun hit is a non-issue IMO...no kill however, indoors (which we have a lot of experience with) I think adaptation may be needed. It would be easy to say, yep any hit no matter if ricocheted or not would be a killing shot....... BUT......... I have been in games were I have full frontal cover and an AEG has me pinned down and a steady stream of BB's is "PELTING" my backside (ricocheted shots from the wall behind me) In the real world, those bullets would either penetrate the wall or lodge in it, (unless it was steel or rock) so we got in the habit of not calling ricochets to force guys to room clear, use tactics, and try for center mass hits. shooting when you don't have a clear or reasonable chance at a hit is "BLIND FIRING" plain and simple. shooting outdoors isn't anything like an outdoor game, just about every shot you fire indooors will ricochet due to the nature of airsoft BB's (just watch a lovely spray from my full auto tracer....you can see every bb contact a wall, and take a new direction.........BTW, it is very cool to watch! ) so Honor or not, you WOULD have folks exploiting the ricochet "bank shot" kill (you're all great guys and gals, I am talking about that other guy : Indoor games carry a little more "ouch factor" so most guys would bend thier honor a little to take out at threat and avoid being pelted at close range....... I am going to enforce this indoor ricochet=no kill rule for HallenKampf. because the only firing you should be doing is "on target" or tapping the wall around them to keep thier head down while a partner flanks, or goes Dynamic! so a few strays aren't going to be a problem, besides the indoor ranges are MUCH closer, so if you get hit by aimed fire.......YOU'LL KNOW IT! YEEOUCH!! At Hallenkampf, It will work fine as we are going to be doing a large number of games with pistol only or semi only, & limited ammo, because of the confined and chopped up spaces. (don't worry you will have opportunities to go full auto too!) my $.02 worth
|
|