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Post by Gunny87 on Mar 13, 2015 12:34:57 GMT -5
The whole FPS measurement for AEGS and Joules for HPA guns is the problem. They need to all be measured in Joules with the weight that the player is using and be held to the same f*cking standard. How is it fair that one player can shoot well over 2 joules with an AEG, but an HPA user can't?
I'm starting to see more and more places scrap measuring in FPS and measure only in Joules for all gun types. And until that happens, there's always going to be a double standard against HPA guns.
Also, while a higher ROF is more common with HPA guns, it can still be achieved with AEGs. Guess what, everyone? There are still more AEG users today, than there are HPA users. This will probably change over the next several years as HPA technology becomes cheaper and more common so why not just make the standard universal from this point on?
No event host is going to want to double their chrono bb costs by having to buy more bbs for measuring ROF. Not to mention how much longer it would take to chrono everyone. Again, which is why people need to be chrono'd with the bb's they intend on using. It holds a better and safer standard because if they chrono with anything higher regardless of what kind of gun they are using for that matter, a spot check will clear that up. And with players using their own bb's it will speed up the chrono line so people don't have to fill empty mags.
Walk, up fire your gun, get tagged. Done.
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Post by X on Mar 13, 2015 13:03:16 GMT -5
The whole FPS measurement for AEGS and Joules for HPA guns is the problem. They need to all be measured in Joules with the weight that the player is using and be held to the same f*cking standard. How is it fair that one player can shoot well over 2 joules with an AEG, but an HPA user can't? I'm starting to see more and more places scrap measuring in FPS and measure only in Joules for all gun types. And until that happens, there's always going to be a double standard against HPA guns. Also, while a higher ROF is more common with HPA guns, it can still be achieved with AEGs. Guess what, everyone? There are still more AEG users today, than there are HPA users. This will probably change over the next several years as HPA technology becomes cheaper and more common so why not just make the standard universal from this point on? No event host is going to want to double their chrono bb costs by having to buy more bbs for measuring ROF. Not to mention how much longer it would take to chrono everyone. Again, which is why people need to be chrono'd with the bb's they intend on using. It holds a better and safer standard because if they chrono with anything higher regardless of what kind of gun they are using for that matter, a spot check will clear that up. And with players using their own bb's it will speed up the chrono line so people don't have to fill empty mags. Walk, up fire your gun, get tagged. Done. I brought that idea up to Mosin, and his argument against that (which I think is valid) is that then the whole chrono system is basically on the honor system. If I'm shooting .40s and I tell you I'm shooting .20s then short of measuring the weight of my bbs you have no way of knowing that I'm telling the truth. If you spot check me later I'm just going to say once again I'm shooting .20s and how are you going to know the difference? Alternatives are: 1)Chrono with a host BB of the same weight that the player plans on using. 2)Use a small portable scale ($30) to randomly check players (or check all players) at chrono. Which might not be as slow as you think since you would then eliminate the need to load .20s in each persons magazine. 3)Chrono with .40s and set MEDs based on those results. This might be unfair to a .30 user, but if you appropriately volume your gun then it shouldn't matter and most HPA users are using heavier BBs anyway. Based on what I've seen joule creep in AEGs is very minimal so the reverse would also be true.
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Post by Gunny87 on Mar 13, 2015 13:10:44 GMT -5
It's certainly a valid argument, and I understand having everyone measure at the same weight. Which is why it's being used to this day. However, if we use hard limits then the bb weight shouldn't really matter then. If you are shooting .40 and you're telling me you're shooting .20's then when you get chrono'd at that bb weight we're going to see a higher Joule result and as long as you don't chrono over the 1.55J limit then that's all we care about.
But I understand the counter argument to this. Because it requires players to be honest if they switch over to using a higher bb after chrono. My only counter argument to that is that, it's already happening. I bet most of us do it every time we play at an airsoft game without even realizing the ramifications. I chrono all of my guns that aren't HPA using the .20 standard. But right after I use .25, .28, .30 gram bbs.
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Post by Tank on Mar 13, 2015 13:31:06 GMT -5
Except that the Joule readout is a calculated result of 1) The chrono measuring FPS, and then 2) It calculating Joules, based on the weight that you select in the chrono menu. So if you shoot .40 and tell the chrono .20 you will get a much lower Joule reading than what you are actually shooting.
The only two options there is to A) have a scale and weigh the BB, or B) Trust that the person is telling you the correct weight.
We flip flop all the time in this game, as to whether we believe one another are honorable or just a bunch of low life cheating ass holes. I would think a "random" check at the chrono from time to time of weighing the person's BB would eventually weed out the jerks. I'm sure you can read between the lines on the "random".
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Post by Gunny87 on Mar 13, 2015 13:35:54 GMT -5
Except that the Joule readout is a calculated result of 1) The chrono measuring FPS, and then 2) It calculating Joules, based on the weight that you select in the chrono menu. So if you shoot .40 and tell the chrono .20 you will get a much lower Joule reading than what you are actually shooting. You are right on that part Tank. I forget that a lot of chrono's don't have as many bb weight settings which is required to accurately measure the velocity of a bb. So we have to know the weight in order to measure the velocity accurately. So that's why the baseline .20g bb weight is used And we'll never really know what weight everyone is actually using. I wonder what the real deviation is from using a heavier weight compared to what a chrono is set at.
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Post by Gimpalong on Mar 13, 2015 13:36:10 GMT -5
If you spot check me later I'm just going to say once again I'm shooting .20s and how are you going to know the difference? Yeah, that's the most irreconcilable problem I've encountered when trying to figure out the best way to chrono guns. The only solution I can think of is, as you suggest, chrono people with the highest weight BB you can find and set the maximum energy output based on that. So if they chrono at <1.55 joules with .4s, they are good to go, but may be at a "disadvantage" if they choose to fire a round weighing less than .40. Call it the "Polarstar tax." Of course, then some treacherous bastard would just start chronoing with .40s and actually shooting .50s and the cycle continues... At some point you have to place some trust in players and accept that there's only so much that an event host can do. The more elaborate the chrono method the longer it will take and the potential for catching the odd cheater might only increase marginally. My suggestion is to use a standardized method and then check out complaints against specific players as they come in. I've always been a huge advocate for safety since coming over from paintball nearly 10 years ago. Full seal, ANSI ratings, using a chrono properly, etc. That said, the average paintball weighs something like 3 grams and is fired around 280 FPS. That's roughly 10 joules. So while we should always keep safety in mind and be conscious of the safety of those we're pewpewing at, we probably don't need to be overly concerned with small differences in energy output.
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Post by Knief on Mar 13, 2015 13:36:26 GMT -5
And you're trying to catch cheaters. If they were willing to cheat and put players in jeopardy, they're willing to lie about what bb weight they plan on using.
I don't know a lot about P*s, my PTW has been good to me. Isn't this an issue because the joule creep on P*s is significantly higher than on AEGs? You see the same effect in GBB pistols when you change the barrel length. I have two WA SVIs with the same internals and I use the same mags. One has a 4.3" barrel and shoots about 340 FPS with .20s on green gas. The other has a 7" barrel and shoots 420 FPS with .20s on green gas. You don't see the same jump when you add length to an AEG barrel, even when I bumped my mp5K up to an MC51 barrel, I had to upgrade the spring to increase the muzzle energy. The SVIs are effectively over volumed, but only one has the barrel length to take advantage of that extra push. Isn't that essentially what happens in P*s? They have more push to give, and the heavier round stays in the barrel for longer, receiving more of that force, increasing its energy?
We've always known about joule creep in AEGs and we did talk about it when we wrote the rules for them. Granted, nobody was using anything heavier than .30s those days (most not using P*s still aren't), but it didn't happen to the same degree with AEGs as it seems to with P*s.
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Post by Gimpalong on Mar 13, 2015 13:39:36 GMT -5
Isn't that essentially what happens in P*s? They have more push to give, and the heavier round stays in the barrel for longer, receiving more of that force, increasing its energy? Yes. Well said and succinctly put.
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Post by X on Mar 13, 2015 13:46:44 GMT -5
Right but no matter what the host has to have an assortment of BB weights that are known in order to chrono / spot check. EDIT: I see Tank cleared that up.
Personally I think it's silly to have the 1.55j limit at all. If you're going to have a separate Joule system for polarstars then make it...
Arms Length: 1.14j 20 Foot: 1.56j 50 Foot semi auto 2.32j 50 Foot Bolt action 2.81j
Note how funny it is that the limit for HPA is 1.55j instead of 1.56j. This is because we copied Lion Claws limit which is for 366 (w/.25) which then translates to 409.00 instead of the 409.9 (~410) MIA Standard. From the outside (since I wasn't aware of any decision process) it looks like we just took the Lion Claws limit without really taking it into context. For Lion Claws. 1.55j is their limit for ALL guns except BA Sniper Rifles. For us it drops in the middle of our limits.
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Post by Gimpalong on Mar 13, 2015 13:50:33 GMT -5
Do we have a specifically established limit for HPA guns?
Sorry, I keep saying 1.55, but the limit we normally use is 1.49 (400 FPS with .20), right?
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Post by Knief on Mar 13, 2015 13:52:27 GMT -5
Let me ask another question then, here. I use .28s and .30s in my PTW with my "410" FPS spring--that is, 410 FPS with .20g bbs. I do that because I get the longest flight path with that weight. When I go up to .40g bbs, the bbs drop shorter than when I use .30s. That's because my PTW isn't over volumed and isn't pushing .40g bbs any (or at least, significantly) harder than .30g bbs. It seems that it's mostly P* users that like to use super heavy bbs on their 20' MED guns. My assumption is that they're doing that specifically to take advantage of the over voluming effect, increasing their range. Is that assumption correct? If not, then why do you use .40g bbs? If you tune your gun so that .30g bbs and .40g bbs have the same muzzle energy (I'm assuming that would mean lower pressure with the heavier bb), do the .40g bbs actually have longer range? Do we know why that is?
I'm sure these are kind of basic questions to guys who have put the time into studying P*s, but I think they're pretty fundamental when determining what weight to chrono the gun with.
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Post by Gunny87 on Mar 13, 2015 14:02:30 GMT -5
I would say so Knief. The issue is that many P* users (but not all) are using longer barrel lengths and therefore some are using "sniper" category weighted bbs to maximize their range. I mean there's a reason why there are some HPA users that are using 550 and 650mm inner barrels with red nozzles with their PSI set to their max and are using the heaviest bb because they can attain incredibly far ranges. But at those settings, they are most likely going to be far above the limit.
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Post by luke213 on Mar 13, 2015 14:02:37 GMT -5
I will say a small electronic scale will tell you the weight of BB's close enough for this purpose fairly cheap. I picked up one for mixing DIY E-liquid and have been using it lately to check what weight BB's are in a mag if I decide to dump them back into the bag. It used to never be a problem since I didn't keep allot of weights around but I do know and it's been a help just from that side of things.
So just a thought for guys who run games and want to spot check, cost was around $12 on ebay.
Luke
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Post by Gimpalong on Mar 13, 2015 14:12:44 GMT -5
Let me ask another question then, here. I use .28s and .30s in my PTW with my "410" FPS spring--that is, 410 FPS with .20g bbs. I do that because I get the longest flight path with that weight. When I go up to .40g bbs, the bbs drop shorter than when I use .30s. That's because my PTW isn't over volumed and isn't pushing .40g bbs any (or at least, significantly) harder than .30g bbs. It seems that it's mostly P* users that like to use super heavy bbs on their 20' MED guns. My assumption is that they're doing that specifically to take advantage of the over voluming effect, increasing their range. Is that assumption correct? If not, then why do you use .40g bbs? If you tune your gun so that .30g bbs and .40g bbs have the same muzzle energy (I'm assuming that would mean lower pressure with the heavier bb), do the .40g bbs actually have longer range? Do we know why that is? I'm sure these are kind of basic questions to guys who have put the time into studying P*s, but I think they're pretty fundamental when determining what weight to chrono the gun with. A little bit from column A, a little bit from column B. When Polarstars first hit the scene, people noticed that they could increase their range by using heavier weight BBs. Obviously, those achieving longer ranges were doing so because they were unknowingly (or in a few cases, knowingly) exploiting "joule creep" and putting out a higher amount of energy. So the usual advice that a new Polarstar user used to get was "use the heaviest weight BBs you can find." This sort of advice has kind of been tamped back down as more users have become educated about the system and specifically about joule creep. I'm rolling your other question around in my head at the moment... so someone will have to doublecheck me here... At some point, the increasing weight of the round is going to produce less range. A gun properly volumed for .30s (the round reaches its maximum speed at the very end of the barrel) should out range the same gun firing .40s since the .40 will have stopped accelerating farther from the end of the barrel and the round is heavier. Exploiting joule creep happens when someone has their rifle properly volumed for a .40, but chronos with a .20. The .20 is out of the barrel before reaching its potential maximum speed and once out of the barrel stops accelerating. The .40 stays in the barrel longer and accelerates to its maximum speed before leaving and while chronoing lower, is actually carrying more energy.
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Post by X on Mar 13, 2015 14:17:57 GMT -5
Do we have a specifically established limit for HPA guns? Sorry, I keep saying 1.55, but the limit we normally use is 1.49 (400 FPS with .20), right? Yes and no, the limit is 1.55 for Suicide Kings and Bastards (aka Pagan, and Mosin) we don't have an official limit for all of MIA. Let me ask another question then, here. I use .28s and .30s in my PTW with my "410" FPS spring--that is, 410 FPS with .20g bbs. I do that because I get the longest flight path with that weight. When I go up to .40g bbs, the bbs drop shorter than when I use .30s. That's because my PTW isn't over volumed and isn't pushing .40g bbs any (or at least, significantly) harder than .30g bbs. It seems that it's mostly P* users that like to use super heavy bbs on their 20' MED guns. My assumption is that they're doing that specifically to take advantage of the over voluming effect, increasing their range. Is that assumption correct? If not, then why do you use .40g bbs? If you tune your gun so that .30g bbs and .40g bbs have the same muzzle energy (I'm assuming that would mean lower pressure with the heavier bb), do the .40g bbs actually have longer range? Do we know why that is? I'm sure these are kind of basic questions to guys who have put the time into studying P*s, but I think they're pretty fundamental when determining what weight to chrono the gun with. I think the reason why polarstar users were using .40s in the past was 2 reasons. 1) unknowingly (or maybe knowingly) taking advantage of the Joule creep. But I think probably the bigger reason.. 2) They are almost all using RHops. An rhop is necessary to shoot those weight BBs and get a long flight path. I think most people are finding that the heavier BBs are giving a better effective range when properly hopped than the lighter BBs. Total range is probably lower, but they fly straighter for longer than lighter BBs. I will say a small electronic scale will tell you the weight of BB's close enough for this purpose fairly cheap. I picked up one for mixing DIY E-liquid and have been using it lately to check what weight BB's are in a mag if I decide to dump them back into the bag. It used to never be a problem since I didn't keep allot of weights around but I do know and it's been a help just from that side of things. So just a thought for guys who run games and want to spot check, cost was around $12 on ebay. Luke Yeah I found one with a nice bowl shape plate for $20 on Amazon Prime.
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