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Post by slippy on Feb 24, 2014 23:10:56 GMT -5
DG's in my opinion, although sweet, are heavily dependent on whether you can problem solve and/or how strong of a "mechanical" mind you have. I constantly see people flooding the Facebook style pages with Daytona style problems. I've never had issues installing a P* and problem solving issues on my own with it, but I (no matter how good of an AEG tech I believe I am) would want to dive into the world of tech-ing on DG systems. Things breaking and needing custom parts and the like or having to get someone to fabricate something new. Note that this isn't always the norm, but I have seen it quite frequently as more people dive into the DG scene. DGs definitely win the cool factor and if built well enough can be an awesome and reliable platform, but I have mainly seen the negative spectrum so for now I'll stray from that scene for a while until the systems reach their later versions like the P* FE did. The awesome thing about the P* FE is how tunable and easy it is (for most anyhow) to trouble shoot and tune to how you'd like it to perform. You can get an AEG to be on the same level as a P* (and my current G&P is on par with my VFC), but the problem is the amount of work and precision needed for what a P* can do in a matter of seconds by changing settings and adjusting pressure. I think when I tuned my AEG gearbox to get my 40rps and robust to withstand that for a good amount of rounds, I was around 4 hours. I did the "same" level of tuning to my P* in roughly 4minutes. The tech aspect of them are on way different levels. Not only does it takes less time to tune it, but it'll stay that way reliably for a lot longer then the AEG counterpart from what I've seen (I don't think I've ever heard of an AEG gearbox going for 100,000shots or anything close, especially a decently well tuned 40+ RPS setup). The fact that you can go from a CQB upper, to DMR upper with just a body change is awesome. Basically if you tune your setup right, just running a longer inner barrel will change your role engagements with no internal fussing. Just think of having a reliable DMR setup or even sniper rifle setup. You figure if that regular AEG build was $450 in parts, you'd have to dump another $450 (possibly less) to get a gun consistently and reliable shooting above 450fps. That means two gearboxes to do 2 different roles vs 1 P* FE. So the $500 FE vs 2 gearboxes worth $900+/- , you can see the main difference once you play more then one role. Not only that, but the P* retains majority of it's value. I still see Gen1 and 2's going for a few hundred. Good luck trying to sell your heavily modified AEG gearbox for a decent chunk of what you spent on it, because most won't pay top dollar. Throw in the fact that Polarstar has thrown in the "1,000,000" round guarantee and you really can't go wrong with it. If something within the FE breaks, just send it in. It would be awesome to see a mainstream AEG producer to put out something on the same level but the truth is that they can't. Not to mention that if for some reason you don;t want to send it in most of the replacement parts can be had for well under $100. Every system has advantages and drawbacks. But this brings up a question. Mayhem, why do you feel the need to run 40+ rps? I know that it's a preference thing mainly but what does it actually do for you if you don't mind me asking?
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Post by MayhemXXXFrosty (AndrewMp5k) on Feb 24, 2014 23:32:25 GMT -5
It's more a trigger response thing, I rarely lay on the trigger on my AEG gearbox setup (I mainly burst for 1/4 a second). For the most part I was pushing my boundaries on tech'ing since people were asking me to do DSG setups for them and the like. I wanted to tech on my own stuff and get the foundation for it before I ventured into doing it for friends on the side. I simply took that mentality towards my P* when I initially got it. My P* is actually only setup for 25rps at the moment since the trigger response on it (after the I did the trigger mod) is awesome enough that I really didn't need it turned up on my P*. So that's another thing great about the P*, the trigger response is a lot better then stock AEG's and can be also be tweaked pretty easily to achieve "quick" results .
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Post by slippy on Feb 24, 2014 23:53:19 GMT -5
Ok, very valid point. P* trigger response (for those who don't already know) is practically instantaneous due to not having to spin up a motor or pull a piston. I've thought about buying a speed trigger but I'm already at the point where i'm never very far off of the "trigger break". DSG setups are a way to minimize trigger response in AEG's and it would be a wonderful world if they, as well as P*'s, were never abused and instead were used responsibly as you seem to do. But I'm afraid that Team America World Police had it right, three kinds of people in this world Chuck.
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Post by steelfallenangel on Feb 25, 2014 5:21:58 GMT -5
Well on the topic of that I know some milsim communities (Lion Cl++aws at least) are looking into ROF limits due to so many problems they've been hearing. And back to what others we re saying, it's true, if I ever invested in a DG I wou+ldn't even bother trying to do a self install and would get the kit installed by Tony. Have him sort out any issues that can crop up between different guns. Not to mention that once you install a DG I'm pretty sure you can't really go back to a AEG due to dremmeling down inside the gun and into the barrel.
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Post by slippy on Feb 25, 2014 12:33:29 GMT -5
Milsims all over the country have been talking about doing it for some time now. Some already have tried singling out one platform and at the end of the day they change their minds for the most part due to the hassle and people just stop going there to play. The only thing that seems to work is instituting a blanket rule change. Make it the same for all platforms.
Another interesting thing is places singling out P* users at the chrono, making them chrono using Joules with the bb's they will be using in the field.. While I agree That it is a good idea to chrono using that system of measurement I think it's unfair because you can also overpressure the inner of an AEG, just like a P*.
It all comes down to player responsibility. Just because my P* can hit 60+ RPS doesn't mean it should. It's the same with DSG set ups. My P* never seems to go above 20RPS due to the simple fact that if I can't hit someone using that high of a ROF then I probably shouldn't be playing.
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Post by Gunny87 on Feb 25, 2014 12:49:59 GMT -5
Back when I had a P*, the way I saw it was having a high ROF set up actually wasn't really advantageous because you just went through more magazines (not an issue for me if you know me) and ammo, but more air consumption. That was an issue for me. So I actually had my RPS setting pretty low. Actually I just used a 3rd burst most of the time just to conserve ammo and air.
The thing that I miss the most about having a Polar Star was the shot consistency. At the time I had mine, I was running a Prommy Neostrike hop up chamber with a prommy soft bucking, Bigout H nub, and a Prommy ASH 6.05mm 509mm that was R-hopped by Jonezy and it was very accurate. Now the range I've been able to match with some of my AEGs, but up until this past weekend the one thing I wasn't able to match was accuracy and consistency.
The second thing I miss the most was how quiet it was. One time I was playing at a field down in Ohio that had a river running through the field and I was on the other side of the river taking out targets from a prone position and people could not find me. They also couldn't hear me.
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Post by X on Feb 25, 2014 13:01:09 GMT -5
I think it's unfair because you can also overpressure the inner of an AEG, just like a P*. Although I agree with everything else you said. Pressure in an AEG is dependent on the spring strength. Pressure and volume would affect both weight BBs equally and as such is not a factor. Assuming you are chrono'ing the same gun with a heavier BB it will always have more energy regardless of any tweaks a gun might have. This is due to the fact that the heavier BB accelerates slower and is in the barrel , under pressure, receiving energy, longer. I suspect the longer the barrel the greater the difference would be. The only exception I can think of is if you have a bad seal in your gearbox which causes you to lose pressure before the BB exists the barrel. At that point a P* which presumably would not have that defect or could compensate for it with higher air volume (also possible in an AEG) would give a higher increase in energy. However, I think that in all cases a heavier BB would have greater energy. So that being said, I would personally move all players to a Joule system, chrono'ing with the weight BB that they play with.
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Post by slippy on Feb 25, 2014 13:16:16 GMT -5
Exactly what I'm saying X. It has to be everyone or no one for there not to be a hassle over it. I'm in favor of using Joules, just as long as EVERYONE is required to do the same. So many people look at a P* and go "Oh that thing must shoot heat-seeking laser beams of plastic death" when the simple fact is they don't. Anybody who throws time and money into a platform can have a great performer weather it's an AEG or Polarstar. The only real difference in performance is the longevity of the system. I like both platforms and I don't see myself as elite for having a $1,000 blaster. It does the same thing as every other high-end gun out there.
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Post by steelfallenangel on Feb 25, 2014 22:48:14 GMT -5
I guess the simplicity of the platform to reach the extremes of what airsoft guns can do is what leads many to hold that belief. Having something that can run a 50bps at 500fps can be done in a gearbox (maybe not quite that insane) but requires technicians with a incredible level of talent, expertise, and money. You don't look at someone running a AEG and think "yea I have to worry about bursts from that monster", with a polarstar you know that the risk is there for nearly every user.
And about the ROF limit I mentioned earlier. At least for Lionclaws itself, they were not intending to have it just be P*s but anything over like 30bps I think.
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Post by slippy on Feb 25, 2014 23:45:32 GMT -5
Even still, I see no reason for anything to be over 25 RPS personally. But you are definitely right, EVERY Polarstar has the capability to run 60 RPS. It's up to the individual user not to. I mean who want's to be on a trigger for only two seconds and then have to reload? In all honesty you may get 1-2 called hits and then be vulnerable while reloading. Makes more sense to run at a slower rate so that you have a bit longer in between reloads.
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Post by steelfallenangel on Feb 26, 2014 9:16:22 GMT -5
Yea but people are just concerned that you round a corner or get around a piece of cover at the same time as someone and the other guy lets loose a spray due to freaking out or lacking trigger discipine. Not as big of a problem with established members of the community that others trust to treat the platform and other players with respect but more of a issue with new people coming in or attending a national or out of state event.
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Post by Gunny87 on Feb 26, 2014 9:48:40 GMT -5
Yea but people are just concerned that you round a corner or get around a piece of cover at the same time as someone and the other guy lets loose a spray due to freaking out or lacking trigger discipline. Regardless this can still happen anywhere though with anyone using any kind of gun whether it's an AEG, a GBBR or an EPAR. In the end it comes down to the user, not the gun they are using. Not every P* user is shooting 500fps with a 30+ ROF, because one that's against the rules at least at MIA games, and two still can be said for an AEG or a GBBR.
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Outlaw
New Member
SK 32
Posts: 106
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Post by Outlaw on Feb 26, 2014 9:58:23 GMT -5
I see no reasons for concern. At MIA sanctioned events every weapon is chrono'd to exacting set guidlines. If P* rps becomes an wide issue (which as far as I know has not) Im sure action will be taken. As far as I have seen in my years of both West and Eastcoast airsofting this has not been a huge problem. For large OPs such as the LC series P* lockouts are an option. I think most fears and misconceptions about P* and Daytona Guns have arisen from the down range recipients. Although it may sound as if it is a A10 warthog, in all actuallity it may only be firing 22-27 rps. My AEGs are all in or above that range and I have never heard a complaint. And bear in mind just because a P* or DG owner has that weapon system most of them are frugal with ammunition just like the rest of us. Don't fear evolution embrace it!
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Post by Gunny87 on Feb 26, 2014 10:08:32 GMT -5
Now for me the biggest negative encounter that I had while I was using my P* was at Northern Light III (2012). Fusion Engines were still relatively new and when I went to chrono my gun, I had to wait for one specific person to come over to chrono my gun. They did chrono it based on Joules and not FPS, but there was a lot of skepticism associated with me because I was a P* user. They didn't have any tournament lock rules at that time, but they slapped a sticker on my gun's body that overlapped the upper and lower receiver as well as on my primary regulator. However I still could have carefully removed the sticker to make any adjustments post chrono if I was that person. Actually I recall the sticker peeling off either on my gun's body or my primary regulator over the weekend but not once during game play was I approached from an official or spot chronod.
But that was almost two years.
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Post by slippy on Feb 26, 2014 10:49:38 GMT -5
Since I've been a P* owner I have yet to be field chrono'd. But whenever I go to an event that requires tournament locks, I don't have one, I encourage the person running the chrono to just zip-tie my tank carrier closed. If I have to fill or switch tanks at some point during the day I am more than happy to re-chrono and I'm always the one to ask to be chrono'd again even though I've never been asked to do so.
I run the system because it's what I like, not because I want to dump a mag into someone in 2 seconds flat.
Gunny, I'd have to say there is a bit of a stigma associated with ownership of the platform. I always get sideways looks when going to chrono. I typically let go of a full-auto burst after getting done with chrono. Not for me, but so officials and players in the immediate area can see I'm not abusing it. Hell, most AEG's fire faster than more my gun is currently set up.
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