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Post by slippy on Feb 23, 2014 14:04:19 GMT -5
This thread is intended to share information, ask questions, and hopefully bridge a gap between AEG and P* users through knowledge. It seems to me that the Polarstar FE is becoming more and more prevalent on today's airsoft fields. With that a lot of rumors and misconceptions are popping up about their capabilities vs. their AEG counterparts.
I welcome all players to chime in on this thread with any questions or concerns they may have. This forum has a wealth of information on the system by the way of people who own and can tech these systems.
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Post by steelfallenangel on Feb 24, 2014 6:42:29 GMT -5
I'm curious on how diffucult users find entry into the platform is. P*s are commonly touted as a way to save money on upgrades in the longterm, but that only ever seems to be true for users that are already making use of them.
After the fusion engine, airline regulator (a decent one like a redline) tank, donor gun, and fillups I just don't see it being that much more cost effecient.
I'm not trying to be critical, its just that I've considered upgrading my collection to P*s and even just getting one rifle up and running would run me about 700$ after all entry costs are accounted for.
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Post by Gunny87 on Feb 24, 2014 7:19:47 GMT -5
Unfortunately the cost of entry to owning a Polar Star is very high. Even more so now considering that earlier generation Fusion Engines used to go for only $400. Then the price went up to $500 for the gen 3. Not including the price of a tank and air rig. You also spend more on HPA. Granted it's pretty cheap (generally $1 per 1k psi) but still an extra cost nonetheless that you wouldn't have to spend using an AEG.
But I think most P* users find that the benefit outweighs the cost, due to gaining better performance and reliability.
Many people disliked having to carry around a like and tank and they sold their P* set ups and went back to AEGs. At least now there's the option to carry a smaller tank in a stock so you don't require a rig. But that's $275, and you only get around 700 shots.
I sold my P* and switched back to AEGs but that's because I was an early adopter and my particular set up wasn't very efficient and after having over 1 grand invested I decided to just switch back at the time. Although had I gone a different route with a tank and rig I might have kept mine. There's also a lot of tricks and extra parts to increase efficiency that wasn't around when I had mine.
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Post by steelfallenangel on Feb 24, 2014 7:49:56 GMT -5
In regards to preformance though, can they really preform that much better than a AEG that had a similiar amount of money invested? I mean for 400-500$ (cost of just the engine) I feel you could have a AEG preforming pretty much however you want. I can understand the alure of being able to more easily change out the FPS/ROF but msot of us only use maybe two FPS rates (350 indoor or 400 field) with only a few running a 400-500fps for a sniper rifle or DMR build. And with so many mech boxes now offering faster spring change systems I just don't see how a P* is a higher preformer (if equal amounts were spent on a gearbox). Not to mention that to get the most out of it you also will need to invest in specefic HPA barrels and rhop installations. And those Orga or other large bore barrels are some of the most expensive inner barrels I see on the market.
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Feb 24, 2014 8:09:39 GMT -5
All airsoft guns, including polarstars fire BBs with a burst of air. There is nothing inherently more accurate about the polarstar's method of doing it when compared to any other well tuned AEG or spring gun. For $600 you can easily buy pretty much all the best gearbox upgrades out there, including a computerized internal fet like the spectre, and that is assuming you start from scratch and don't use any stock parts. Whether you can have a tech install those parts if you can't do it yourself while staying under the cost of a polarstar is another question altogether. I bring this up because so called "lego builds" never end up how you want them if you don't know how to tune the gun properly. People like the polarstar system because just about anyone can drop it in and have the same results as a perfectly tuned AEG. If anyone thinks they can open up a gearbox for the first time and have it end up like a polarstar when they close it up is probably very mislead.
Also, polarstars won't benefit from the r hop any more than an AEG would, it's a great upgrade but doesn't enhance one system any more than the other since they both use the same hop up system.
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Post by steelfallenangel on Feb 24, 2014 9:10:20 GMT -5
I didn't mean to imply that just anyone off the street could make a perfect gearbox. My cost breakdown was meant to include a professional installation. That and the simplicity of the system makes troubleshooting far easier. And while Rhops benefit any airsoft gun, I've been hearing that P* and other HPA guns to reach their full potential really need those new wide bore barrels which cost quite a bit more. For the same price as a Orga by itself, you could buy a promethesis tightbore with a rhop patch already installed by hunterseeker himself.
I'm not trying to knock down P*s. It just I don't see them being the be all end all for all airsoft improvements. Especially with AEGs starting to feature more features at a lower base price. Things that the fusion engine can't currently provide like recoil and electronic cutoffs. Not that these kinds of features are for everyone.
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Feb 24, 2014 9:38:12 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, I kinda dislike polarstars too. I don't keep up on what people say is "best" as far as barrels for polarstars go, but I would take the whole Orga thing with a grain of salt. There are several theories as to what happens with the BB inside a barrel, but it's been proven time and time again that bore diameter and length are far less important than consistency and finish of the inner bore. Also, the only difference between a polarstar and an AEG that I can see that would cause a polarstar to need a wider barrel is that polarstars are capable of putting out a larger volume of air with each shot, however I think that this could be easily replicated in an overvolumed AEG with a short barrel and non ported or even bore-up cylinder. There are so many theories for what barrel/hop up brand/bore size/length/whatever works with X gun setup with Y parts, most of which are completely unscientific and proliferated by people who have never tried them or don't fully understand how they work. There is a good chance that I am totally wrong about the Orga barrels, and I'm willing to admit that, but with the kind of performance that I know an AEG is capable of with a quality barrel like a Prometheus, I am very skeptical of what I perceive as trends in the "tech" community, especially the P* community since I think a lot of them chose polarstars in the first place because they are not proficient at tuning AEGs.
As for a cost breakdown of a highly upgraded AEG gearbox, the list should look something like this IMO. Riot Gears $120 BTC Specter $100 Lonex Shell $45 Lonex/SHS piston $25ish Motor $50 or less Modify Ceramic bearings $50 (unnecessary since the lonex shell comes with nice 8mm bearings, but I threw them in for effect) All other parts <$100
That puts you at no more that $450 for just the parts, and that is with no expenses spared and assuming you used no stock parts. If you had a G&P to start with, you really wouldn't need the bearings, gearbox, or any of the small parts like the tappet plate, cylinder, cylinder head, nozzle, spring guide, etc, so the cost would be significantly less. Either way, even with the most expensive parts, you should have about $150 left over to have it all installed by a good tech. I think the bigger problem here is finding a competent tech. I personally do my own tech work, though not for hire, and I can say with confidence that if the so called "tech" is not a member of airsoftmechanics I probably wouldn't be okay with him working on my gun. This would then rule out most major airsoft shops, and a lot of people who advertise on various forums.
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Post by Pagan on Feb 24, 2014 9:38:56 GMT -5
I decided to make the step in to using a P* for a few reasons. Maintenance: I've had really good luck with most of my replicas, but the ones I've had issues with were enough to make me start to look at the P* system. Different roles. I like to buy different set ups for the same platform. To me it makes much more sense to put together multiple uppers and use a single base, than to have multiple whole guns. I know I could do the same thing with aegs, but that's where the ease of dialing in a P* makes things much easier. If I want to play indoors, I set it up for 350 fps and put on a cqb upper. I want to do some long range semi auto only shooting, I put on that set up. For me it's saving money in the fact that I can have what ever set up I want, with out having to have multiple whole replicas. I look at polar stars the same way I look at any niche type airsoft system. There are people who are willing to invest what they feel they system is worth. Would I purchase a systema? Nope. Do I think someone who did wasted their money? Nope, it's their money, they can do what they want with it. I think polar stars have gotten a bad rap from the people who have abused their capabilities. I've seen just as many douchebags abusing high ROF and high fps replicas that were AEGs. I've also seen P* users who run the system the way they should be ran, and I've seen how effective they can be with them. I look at this purchase the same way I looked at making any high end purchase. I am willing to spend a little bit more in the beginning, rather than to continue to spend money to keep upgrading. When you look at higher end AEGs, you're almost to a similar price point as a polar star replica. VFC 417: $650 on sale for $550 www.evike.com/products/40249/Pr15: $650 www.evike.com/products/43158/So with the exception of the tank and rig, you're not looking at a huge amount more for the Pr15. If you only need the FE itself, you're looking at $50 less. If you shop smart, you can find used tanks and regs for a great price, hell you can get entire P* setups for less than it would cost you to build one. Why do people spend $400+ on a plate carrier, because they feel the item is worth it. Same thing goes for our replicas.
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Post by Zorak on Feb 24, 2014 9:42:48 GMT -5
So the idea is that Ike's Polarstar guide is for questions about making it work, while this thread is for issues about what it does? I don't want there to be two guide threads. That would just make it harder to find answers.
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Post by slippy on Feb 24, 2014 10:11:34 GMT -5
Well Zorak, my logic behind the creation of this thread is to have an open discussion about the system. Ike's thread is great as far as the technical aspect of the system. I've read through almost every post on it and I think that this thread is necessary as a means of discussion between AEG and P* owners on the differences in cost, field-ability, long-term benefit, etiquette of use and what should be a implied sense sensibility in making set-ups.
I feel that even the current dialogue, though limited, that this thread has inspired has already validated the need for this thread. AEG's can have all the same performance capabilities as P*'s. And I believe that even though you can tune any gun to hit 40+ RPS you shouldn't. Everyone can relate to thinking at some point "that douche with the rps tuned P* needs to go to hell". Even I have had that thought but I argue that a DSG setup can do the same.
I like the system because, you may want to sit down for this, I come from the world of high-end paintball. EPAR's are essentially second nature to me so it was an easy choice to spend over $900 to make one. Can it be any faster than an AEG, yes. Is it more versatile than an AEG, yes. Is it easier to tune than an AEG, yes. Do I think it's better than a well tuned AEG? No, not particularly. It's all personal preference at the end of the day.
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Post by Gimpalong on Feb 24, 2014 10:41:55 GMT -5
I think only time will tell if this thread actually develops into something useful enough to be kept around. Ike's thread is a basic introduction to the system and was stickied because it provides useful info like how the system works, how to read the FCU, etc. It deals more with the technical side and less with the rationale behind purchasing the system or how the system actually gets used in games. It does do a little bit to address misconceptions about the system, but it does so in a pretty technical, not very accessible sort of way.
A big part of my rationale for buying a Polarstar was that, at the time, I had like 4 or 5 different guns and was constantly selling and buying new ones. Since I was constantly buying and selling, my focus on generally on guns that were around the $200 mark. So I had a bunch of sort of mediocre rifles. Eventually, I just decided it was more cost effective for me to sell those rifles and take the combined income from those purchase and buy one rifle that I could use for everything. Today I've got two rifles - a G&P Polarstar and a G&P AEG. So I can run whichever suits my fancy for that day, plus I can swap the uppers around to have different configurations.
I also came to airsoft from paintball and since making the switch had been pretty disgusted with the poor quality and bad QC of many airsoft replicas. I spent some time looking at "Classic" airsoft guns, but never made the leap, so when finally the Fusion Engine came on the scene it was basically what I had wanted since 2006.
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Post by slippy on Feb 24, 2014 11:29:15 GMT -5
I didn't mean to imply that just anyone off the street could make a perfect gearbox. My cost breakdown was meant to include a professional installation. That and the simplicity of the system makes troubleshooting far easier. And while Rhops benefit any airsoft gun, I've been hearing that P* and other HPA guns to reach their full potential really need those new wide bore barrels which cost quite a bit more. For the same price as a Orga by itself, you could buy a promethesis tightbore with a rhop patch already installed by hunterseeker himself. I'm not trying to knock down P*s. It just I don't see them being the be all end all for all airsoft improvements. Especially with AEGs starting to feature more features at a lower base price. Things that the fusion engine can't currently provide like recoil and electronic cutoffs. Not that these kinds of features are for everyone. Well here is the breakdown of my system. A TON of trial and error. VFC 416D externals V2 Gen3 Polarstar Prowin CNC hop HSA M Nub IR-Hop Orga 6.23mm 400mm length With a red nozzle (Baseline charts say 480-550+) Fps is ACTUALLY adjustable between 350-500+ with very minor tuning. Takes maybe 1-2 minutes. What you're hearing about the ORGA widebore's so far seems to be true. With a 6.03 509mm the range was near identical to my KWA SR-12 with the same fps. However, due to the overpressure that the Polarstar can attain (AEG's can also do this by mixing and matching different volume cylinders to shorter barrel lengths) it seems to have a noticeably higher range. The cost of the ORGA though is nothing new. I believe I paid roughly the same price for a Prommy EDGI a couple years back. The price is higher than most AEG's and at the end of the day they all do the same thing, sling plastic. I don't particularly enjoy carrying around a tank but at the end of the day I don't really hate it either. It all comes down to what you want to spend your money on. AMAZING replicas can be had on all fronts for that kind of money, I.e. AEG, GBB, NGBB, EPAR or DG. Personal preference is what life is all about.
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Post by steelfallenangel on Feb 24, 2014 20:36:29 GMT -5
EPAR? Whats that, the classic designs?
And thats true I guess. I was just looking for first hand experience people had when first transitioning over to a P* system.
I mean the fusion engine carries with it a different stigma than say a Daytona gun. I mean at least the vibe I get from some people (not all mind you) is that once you start using P* you should only be using them and should just have one lower but a series of uppers to swap out roles.
I had asked about a Daytona M249 and about how gas effecient it would be, but I'm curious on if a P* might be a more viable option in terms of reliability and consistency, abliet not as fun as a Daytona.
And didn't I see something about someone working on tapping a HPA gun to run off CO2 canisters for a faster tank change system.
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Post by slippy on Feb 24, 2014 22:06:03 GMT -5
EPAR is a polarstar. Electro-pneumatic airsoft replica. Pretty much the only difference after the transition is the added weight for me. The line is a your mileage may very type of thing. I don;t mind it one bit but other hate it. I agree about the stigma though. But it seems more along the lines of once you have one you really don't want to use anything else. My KWA just ended up sitting on my self collecting dust so I sold it to a friend. It was still a kick-ass AEG but the P* was just more fun. Plus they are QUIET.
As far as capacity goes with a mindset geared towards efficiency, I would say that P*'s have the edge. I have ran mine as low as 40psi. P* aftermarket support is getting pretty big now. Nozzles of all different sizes for all different speeds and low flow poppets to maximize efficiency potential. Realistically I get a little over 5200 shots running 80psi with one tank which is 90 CI @ 4500PSI.
Tank changes are as simple as unscrewing the empty and screwing in a new one.
The mantra for HPA guns goes something like this, "DG's are cool but P*'s win with reliability and versatility".
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Post by MayhemXXXFrosty (AndrewMp5k) on Feb 24, 2014 22:53:59 GMT -5
DG's in my opinion, although sweet, are heavily dependent on whether you can problem solve and/or how strong of a "mechanical" mind you have. I constantly see people flooding the Facebook style pages with Daytona style problems. I've never had issues installing a P* and problem solving issues on my own with it, but I (no matter how good of an AEG tech I believe I am) would want to dive into the world of tech-ing on DG systems. Things breaking and needing custom parts and the like or having to get someone to fabricate something new. Note that this isn't always the norm, but I have seen it quite frequently as more people dive into the DG scene. DGs definitely win the cool factor and if built well enough can be an awesome and reliable platform, but I have mainly seen the negative spectrum so for now I'll stray from that scene for a while until the systems reach their later versions like the P* FE did.
The awesome thing about the P* FE is how tunable and easy it is (for most anyhow) to trouble shoot and tune to how you'd like it to perform. You can get an AEG to be on the same level as a P* (and my current G&P is on par with my VFC), but the problem is the amount of work and precision needed for what a P* can do in a matter of seconds by changing settings and adjusting pressure. I think when I tuned my AEG gearbox to get my 40rps and robust to withstand that for a good amount of rounds, I was around 4 hours. I did the "same" level of tuning to my P* in roughly 4minutes. The tech aspect of them are on way different levels. Not only does it takes less time to tune it, but it'll stay that way reliably for a lot longer then the AEG counterpart from what I've seen (I don't think I've ever heard of an AEG gearbox going for 100,000shots or anything close, especially a decently well tuned 40+ RPS setup).
The fact that you can go from a CQB upper, to DMR upper with just a body change is awesome. Basically if you tune your setup right, just running a longer inner barrel will change your role engagements with no internal fussing. Just think of having a reliable DMR setup or even sniper rifle setup. You figure if that regular AEG build was $450 in parts, you'd have to dump another $450 (possibly less) to get a gun consistently and reliable shooting above 450fps. That means two gearboxes to do 2 different roles vs 1 P* FE. So the $500 FE vs 2 gearboxes worth $900+/- , you can see the main difference once you play more then one role. Not only that, but the P* retains majority of it's value. I still see Gen1 and 2's going for a few hundred. Good luck trying to sell your heavily modified AEG gearbox for a decent chunk of what you spent on it, because most won't pay top dollar.
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