magnus
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The true measure of a hero is when he gives his life, knowing that those he saves will never know.
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Post by magnus on Aug 8, 2013 10:22:17 GMT -5
Hello guys,
I recently decided to invest in a TBB for my Echo 1 ASR. I am buying an Angel Custom hop unit, a King Arms bucking, and the upgrade kit (However, I will NOT use the more powerful spring). Now I am stuck in a problem. I have two options - to get the 455mm (standard length) Madbull 6.01 inner barrel, or to buy a silencer, threader, and use the 650mm 6.01 inner barrel. Which one do you guys think I should get? (The 650mm barrel, with all that is needed, would cost roughly 75 dollars more).
Thanks a lot, Magnus
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Post by snafu on Aug 8, 2013 11:49:29 GMT -5
I would run the 455mm barrel. The extra length will certainly make the gun more unwieldy and the difference in accuracy would not be noticeable with a well tuned hop. This is obviously opinion an there is an ongoing debate about barrel length and accuracy. Some seem to think longer is better where I've heard others say there is a sweet spot for each setup.
I'm curious to see what others will say when they chime in here. I know thee are guys that swear by their 650mm barrels but I've seen people get I insane range with a flat/r-hopped 363mm barrel.
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Post by Puma1 on Aug 8, 2013 12:14:54 GMT -5
I don't think it's worth it. I've used three (major) barrel lengths, including your standard 363 m4, 455 AK, and 509 M16. For the record, there were all stock clones with 6.08 barrels. The 363 was garbage compared to the ak and M16, but the 50ish mm gap between the other two guns made a very minimal difference. maybe 5 feet of usable accuracy.
In my opinion, its an exponential equaton,
by this i mean that a small gap (lets say 210mm-255mm) early on will cause a huge amount of range and accuracy gain. as you get longer, there will be less improvement each time. so a 509 to a 550 would not be beneficiary in any real significant way.
go with the cheaper route, set up a good hop-up system as Snafu recommended, and dial in your rifle to shoot lasers.
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Aug 8, 2013 16:19:47 GMT -5
Why not spend the money on a good quality barrel rather than a mediocre quality long one? As the others have said, accuracybis not directly correlated to barrel length, and many people theorize that excessively long barrels may be detrimental to accuracy. 650mm barrels would fall into that category by most definitions.
I would agree with puma that barrel length follows the law of diminishing returns, though I do find that his example is not particularly well founded since it is a comparison of stock barrels (which often have absolute garbage for QC) in what I assume to be different systems and hence too many variables to come to any conclusions. I tend to believe that a 363mm will give at least as good of results as a 509, which I think is the opposite of what puma is saying. Basically I subscribe to the theory that a varrel needs to have a minimum length to allow the bb to stabilize fully in whatever pattern it takes down the barrel. Since no barrel is perfect anything after this stabilization point is just going to mess things up, however slightly it may do so. This minimum length would likely be dependent on how fast the bb you intend to shoot will be traveling. Regardless, neither of your choices would be too short. I say forget the madbull and get a PDI or prometheus.
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magnus
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The true measure of a hero is when he gives his life, knowing that those he saves will never know.
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Post by magnus on Aug 8, 2013 18:45:16 GMT -5
ctres - They are the same quality of barrels. Both are Madbull 6.01 7075 Aluminum, but I was trying to figure out whether or not I should go for the longer barrel.
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Aug 8, 2013 19:12:49 GMT -5
By quality I meant that I was suggesting something other than madbull. Rather than paying for a thread adapter and such to run a longer barrel, just buy a standard length barrel that is higher quality than madbull.
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magnus
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The true measure of a hero is when he gives his life, knowing that those he saves will never know.
Posts: 110
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Post by magnus on Aug 8, 2013 21:06:32 GMT -5
What is a high quality barrel then? Prometheus?
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Aug 8, 2013 21:37:02 GMT -5
Yeah, prometheus or PDI stainless steel barrels are the best in terms of bore finish and consistency which leads to the best overall accuracy. Madbull is probably an upgrade from the stock barrel but really isn't ideal for a system in which the main goal is accuracy, hence my suggestion. I'm sure the madbull would work alright, but I would say just invest in something nicer like prometheus. If you can't get it right away, it will be worth it to wait. There is plenty you can do in any gun to improve the accuracy without touching the barrel.
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Post by Puma1 on Aug 8, 2013 22:49:08 GMT -5
Ctres, It was in no way a scientific expirement. the M4 barrels still hit our target, but the longer ones hit it more consistently. Will the m4 length get'r done? yes. Will the 509 get it done better? From what I've seen, yes. Airsoft isn't really anything that can be compared, due to all of these variables. Using stock guns was a really bad idea, but it was all we had. I have seen what you pointed out though: well pet together m4's can outshoot some 509mm barrels without issue. Man, if i had the money this is the stuff i would do with it...
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Post by Kjones on Aug 9, 2013 5:22:00 GMT -5
The most accurate gun I ever had was a TM mp5k with a 4 inch barrel. I dont know why but that thing was a laser. So a super long barrel is not a guarantee to great accuracy
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Aug 9, 2013 9:53:50 GMT -5
Puma, what I am saying is that your test is so feel un-scientific that for you to post your observations as advice is very misleading.
You took three different types of gun, which may or may not be from different brands, with three different barrels (brand, material, bore finish, manufacturer QC, level of cleanliness, and YES, overall length), three different hop up chambers and buckings with three different levels of air seal with three different gearboxes with three different ammounts of airseal, and possibly three different velocities. You didn't even state what ammo you were shooting and whether it was the same for each gun. Even if it was, I doubt that it was something consistent enough to be a reliable variable even IF everything else was constant.
So, you fire these three guns with all of the these differences and the AK and M16 shot better than the M4. I am not trying to deny those results that you found, what I am questioning is where you came to the conclusion that it was the barrel length that made the difference rather than any of the other factors I listed above. How did you not come to any of the following conclusions?
1. The M4 has a dirty barrel. 2. The M4 has oil in the hop up causing inconsistencies. 3. The M4 has some other issue with the bucking such as being torn or improperly molded. 4. The M16 and AK have better overall airseal and hence better consistency. 5. The inner barrel of the M4 must be of lower quality due to low QC at the factory, causing less consistency.
Those are five very relevant conclusions that you could have reached, but instead you somehow decided it was the barrel length and used it as a recommendation to someone else. This really isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of hard facts. The hard fact is that in order to determine what barrel length is best, you need to first make all the other variables constant. Those who have succeeded in doing so have found that they get excellent results with pretty much any reasonable length, and no one has been nitpicky/rich enough to go to such lengths as to do a perfect test.
If you care to know, a perfect test would, in my opinion be best conducted in a VSR 10 rifle because of how easy it is to correct airseal 100% with anti blowby rings. It is also an easy platform to stabilize the inner barrel.
To the OP, my suggestion is to try your best to make your airseal as consistent as possible. It will do at least as much for you as a good inner barrel.
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magnus
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The true measure of a hero is when he gives his life, knowing that those he saves will never know.
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Post by magnus on Aug 9, 2013 10:22:15 GMT -5
Umm..... Have I unwittingly started a clash of airsoft mechanics here?
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Aug 9, 2013 10:38:07 GMT -5
I hope not, I did not intend it to be that way. I was simply pointing out the flaw in Puma's conclusion about barrel length. Take it or leave it, I think I've made my point and I don't want to start anything.
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Post by Gimpalong on Aug 9, 2013 11:59:40 GMT -5
In addition, barrel length doesn't mean much if you can't actually aim your rifle and bring it on target.
Rifles like M14s, M16s, G36KEs, FALs, etc all have great long barrels, but can be hard to manage in brush, or in buildings. They aren't easy to tuck into cover with while under fire.
The "form factor" and ergonomics of a rifle matter in a similar way. If a rifle is oddly shaped or has poor ergonomics you're not going to be able to aim it as easily as something with excellent ergonomics.
So while an M16 could, potentially, be more accurate than an M4 of similar build and make, the price in weight and maneuverability might not be worth the minor additional gains in accuracy (if any).
These are just some things to think about alongside the other technical material. A rifle might be capable of being very accurate, but that doesn't mean if the user is not able to take full advantage of that capability.
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magnus
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The true measure of a hero is when he gives his life, knowing that those he saves will never know.
Posts: 110
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Post by magnus on Aug 9, 2013 14:08:23 GMT -5
@gimpalong - This is a long range bolt action sniper rifle build I am trying to make here. It has a bipod and a 3-9x scope, and if you can't aim with that, you shouldn't have any business with firearms of ANY kind.
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