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Post by Zorak on May 9, 2013 15:56:26 GMT -5
If there are specific cracks that players keep abusing, why not tape 'em up?
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Post by snafu on May 9, 2013 17:57:06 GMT -5
If there are specific cracks that players keep abusing, why not tape 'em up? The bastards will always find more, better to have a set rule against it IMO. |
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Post by Tank on May 9, 2013 19:32:19 GMT -5
In my mind, it's pretty simple. Obvious holes meant to be shot FROM, should be allowed to shot from, windows, and gun ports (which in airsoft I would classify a gun port as something that you can stick your gun through, and also look through your sights). If you can't sight down your sights, it shouldn't be allowed.
On the flip side, I think asking a player to judge whether he got shot through a crack or whether it was a hole, is just inviting more arguments of proper hit calling. In a sport/hobby where you hear complaints of a lack of hit calling, I don't think we need anything to provoke even more instances of it. Unless it was a ricochet, I think anything that hits you should count. When you can hear BBs pelting the structure you're in, then one gently bounces off of you, it's safe to assume that it was a bounce. In the same scenario, if one bounces off of you fairly hard, I don't think it really maters if it was a ricochet (real bullets kill from a shallow ricochet), you should still count it.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by Kilo Oscar Tango on May 10, 2013 0:35:27 GMT -5
I feel like shooting through cracks cheapens the experience. A clear port or portal like a window or a door has a drawback to firing out because you can also receive fire. Shooting through a crack makes me think of some particularly nasty hacks in videogames where it seems the walls just shoot you from nowhere. Tactically there's no value to it as there is no counter, it's just an invincible position that dictates the scenario. I'm not saying everything has to be fair all the time, but that practice kills the flow of a game by creating empty space no one wants to play in.
In indoor facilities especially you want to be able to use all the space available.
I've seen this kind of thing with players that refuse to take their hits and "bunker down" as well on outdoor fields. Sometimes the other players stop taking that player seriously and keep playing even though they're taking hits from him/her, which can be confused with other players hitting them and you have degradation of the honor system.
There is the safety issue that has been mentioned as well. I'd agree to the blind fire logic applying to cracks for safety reasons, but there may be some cracks that are large enough or at the right angle to get a sight picture. I would apply a clear port or portal rule to take it a step further, it might not per perfectly "realistic" but it may help preserve the flow of the game and keep more tactics available and let you utilize more space. I would think that would lead to more interesting games overall and that's what we want.
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Post by Squirrel on May 10, 2013 5:59:28 GMT -5
The problem just isn't a sight picture. The problem is not knowing what is coming around that corner you are shooting through.
For example, last year a person with a CO2 revolver that wasn't even supposed to be on the field was crack shooting. A very young player, probably 13, had no idea the guy was in the building shooting through a 1" wide crack. He ran around the corner and took a nearly 600fps BB at point blank in his back. This was a friendly fire incident as well.
If you are in a situation where you will be shooting through a crack, there is always potential for unknown traffic. There is a chance for potentially unsafe shots. I would rather not see it happen since you never know when it might be you that runs past a corner and possibly gets a shot to the face or the ear or something.
I've had enough teeth broken out, and don't want to go through that again.
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Post by Tank on May 10, 2013 7:19:34 GMT -5
The problem just isn't a sight picture. The problem is not knowing what is coming around that corner you are shooting through. For example, last year a person with a CO2 revolver that wasn't even supposed to be on the field was crack shooting. A very young player, probably 13, had no idea the guy was in the building shooting through a 1" wide crack. He ran around the corner and took a nearly 600fps BB at point blank in his back. This was a friendly fire incident as well. If you are in a situation where you will be shooting through a crack, there is always potential for unknown traffic. There is a chance for potentially unsafe shots. I would rather not see it happen since you never know when it might be you that runs past a corner and possibly gets a shot to the face or the ear or something. I've had enough teeth broken out, and don't want to go through that again. I mention sight picture, because if you have enough size to the opening to get a sight picture, you likely have enough opening to see what is going on to at least some of the area next to the opening. If "gun ports" ended up being not allowed to shoot from, then windows are only slightly larger, why allow shooting from them? You still wouldn't know 100% what is right next to the window, on the outside. 100%, anyone shooting from a crack is absolutely not playing fairly, is a huge safety risk, and should be yanked out of the game. Safety is obviously paramount, and you don't need someone in the game that has that little regard for someone else's well being. I think we are all fairly on the same page with this, maybe we just need to define a way for a player to judge if an opening is legal to shoot from. Also specifying places, like the corners of the castle at No Limits, that are absolutely a no go. If you're caught shooting through the corner of the castle, you are out for the day, no contest. |
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Post by Pagan on May 10, 2013 7:27:35 GMT -5
I agree Tank.
After a "discussion" on the topic, we really haven't had any incidents at the field. It's been nice.
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Post by Tank on May 10, 2013 7:33:39 GMT -5
I agree Tank. After a "discussion" on the topic, we really haven't had any incidents at the field. It's been nice. I think there was one person shooting out the crack in the corner of the castle, on the short bridge side, last game. I didn't see it, but I was warned of it when I was standing next to it. I don't know if someone had a talk with the person or not. |
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Post by Pagan on May 10, 2013 7:40:20 GMT -5
I agree Tank. After a "discussion" on the topic, we really haven't had any incidents at the field. It's been nice. I think there was one person shooting out the crack in the corner of the castle, on the short bridge side, last game. I didn't see it, but I was warned of it when I was standing next to it. I don't know if someone had a talk with the person or not. No one mentioned it to the refs, so we had no chance to address it. Players have to be involved and let someone know, so we can take care of it on the spot. I wish I would have known, I was in a mood from getting shot as soon as I blew the whistle on the game too. |
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Post by Zorak on May 10, 2013 8:17:10 GMT -5
If there are specific cracks that players keep abusing, why not tape 'em up? The bastards will always find more, better to have a set rule against it IMO. It's not either-or, though. Obviously I'm in favor of rules against anything that interferes with safety or fun, but doing something to actually cover those cracks simplifies things. |
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Post by Human (Ghost) on May 10, 2013 8:30:28 GMT -5
I can understand the safty concern.
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Fear Roback
New Member
Referee @ futureball.com
Posts: 172
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Post by Fear Roback on May 10, 2013 18:43:16 GMT -5
I appreciate the concern of the staff at Futureball to make it more enjoyable. I had fun there. Thanks. And your Welcome |
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Post by Thor on May 11, 2013 18:57:23 GMT -5
Here's the problem as I see it. Airsoft strives to maintain a balance between realism and safety. Which is exactly why blind firing is not allowed. Might someone do it in real life? Sure. Your life is on the line, all bets are off.
But, in real life, most of what is cover in an airsoft game would be merely concealment. Meaning, if I see you behind some plywood in real life I will shoot through it to kill you. In airsoft, that obviously is not possible, so there needs to be a balancing factor to prevent those within a structure from having an overly unfair advantage from those outside. If you are shooting me through a gap no bigger than your gun barrel, or worse your inner barrel, how is that fair play?
If a crack or gap is obviously there because of a construction defect or limitations of the materials used, a player shouldn't be able to unfairly benefit from it. As others mentioned, someone may come around a corner and stumble into your machine gun nest of death, and if you have an engagement limit, they may be well within it and be injured and you would have no idea because you wouldn't see them as you are not shooting through an appropriate opening.
It seems to me that the only people that are really in favor of shooting through these small openings are the ones who stand to benefit the most from it.
Since this isn't actual combat, I feel a sense of honor and fair play should factor in here. Same as if it were fencing, jousting, or a martial arts tournament.
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Simon
New Member
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Post by Simon on May 11, 2013 20:02:54 GMT -5
So are you saying that every player should be at least arms length from every crack wide enough to fit a bb? What if the person behind it could be shooting at 500FPS? Should every player now be at least 50 feet away from every crack wide enough to fit a bb? If every player treats the crack, gap or whatever hole they are shooting through as their intended target and backs off their specific MED then they should be fine safety-wise. If I have an arms length MED then I have to be an arms length from the opening, 20ft MED has to be 20ft away and so on. If you cannot fire at or through the crack without the crack violating your personal MED then you don't do it. That is what I'm saying. |
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Post by M.S.-ARC on May 12, 2013 22:19:08 GMT -5
So are you saying that every player should be at least arms length from every crack wide enough to fit a bb? What if the person behind it could be shooting at 500FPS? Should every player now be at least 50 feet away from every crack wide enough to fit a bb? If every player treats the crack, gap or whatever hole they are shooting through as their intended target and backs off their specific MED then they should be fine safety-wise. If I have an arms length MED then I have to be an arms length from the opening, 20ft MED has to be 20ft away and so on. If you cannot fire at or through the crack without the crack violating your personal MED then you don't do it. That is what I'm saying. It's better if you just don't do it for the whole litany or reasons already mentioned in this thread plus most people if they do that, they stick the gun right on that gap. You'll have a hard time convincing me that when you see a crack you want to shoot through, you peek through it, spot a target, and then you measure the arms length, back up and then fire, peek through again to see if you hit the guy, rinse, lather, and repeat. |
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