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Post by Phantom G3 on Nov 14, 2012 18:14:04 GMT -5
What was the rest of your setup, how many rounds did you run through it, and was there any noticeable wear on the gears afterwards? I used this in my set up. Please note that it was not a sup3r 1337 DMR. Just a light DMR-workhorse: Nozzle: Prommy Cylinder Head: Bravo double-o-ring Cylinder: Magic Box Light-Weight Aluminum Tappet Plate: Prommy Gears: 18:1 SHS Spring: Madbull M120 Spring Guide: Magic Box Ultra Smooth Bushings: Magic Box 8mm Ball Bearings Shims: Madbull Gearbox Shell: Systema Energy Motor: AMP T5000L and G&P M170 Devil Jet (I used them both) I mean after using this whole set up for 6 games, I really didn't see all that much wear on the inside. Just had to clean up used grease, that's all. I shot about 10,000 rounds through it including sighting in the scope and just plinking . I loved this set up; but to each their own. EDIT: Forgot to add the Piston/Piston Head . Piston: Lonex Red Piston Head: Bravo Aluminum
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Casper
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Post by Casper on Nov 14, 2012 18:58:50 GMT -5
Yes its inefficient. However with the motors available today it won't put a ridiculous strain on the motor so why not do it. In comparison to high torque gears your trigger response will be godly.
Sent from my VS910 4G using proboards[/quote]
ThompsonFTW, I hope you know what you are talking about and can back it up.
You might as well just ask him to run few battery pack in series to 20++ volts.
It will not putting the strain on the motor but the strain will be put on to everything else downline and good luck with the gearset holding up. Also it'll drain the battery pack quicker and if the battery doesn't have high enough discharge rate to sustain the load you are killing the battery while doing so too. Hope the wiring will not having a meltdown in the process too.
Short of Siegetek gearset I have yet seen any 13:1 gearset that can last in many less strenous setup let alone this.
So please stay off of suggesting this kind of ill-advice technical stuff unless you are really know what you are doing unless you will pay for the fuck up in his parts down the road.
So in short you are giving him build advice that is for very short term and it is a very stupid way to do it. He will be paying for the breakage consequense down the road not you so please take consideration into that.
I can quarantied with my name on this that a 18:1 gearset with high torque motor will have quicker crisp response and more reliable setup that your suggestion with 13:1 gearset.
PS: If anyone or mod feel I'm out of line or inappropriate in wording feel free to take appropriate action deem neccessary and I will accept any consequense with no hard feeling.
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Post by Phantom G3 on Nov 14, 2012 19:09:34 GMT -5
With the set up that I have above, I thought that the 18:1 gears had an amazing trigger response! Also, my setup was with a V2 gearbox. I ran it with my G3 SG1.
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Nov 14, 2012 19:24:12 GMT -5
I tend to agree with Casper here. Riot's gears would hold up to that, but for long term reliability I don't know if there is anything else out there that I would trust. As for batteries with an m14 that has plenty of space you could easily get the power you need for 13:1s with a lipo. For instance this battery can do 132 amps continous www.hobbypartz.com/77p-sl3300-3s1p-40c-3333.htmlThat is way more than the motor would ever draw, not to mention that the battery can do even more in burst. If he were to use a crappy airsoft lipo this would present an issue, but not with a half decent battery. Hobbyking also has good cheap packs. Casper, I don't understand why you think it would require more voltage though. You are right that it will drain more mah, but with a 3300 mah battery shooting semi only this will never be an issue. As Casper has said, this type of setup would also create issues in other parts of the gearbox drivetrain. You would definitely want bushings rather than bearings. Modify stainless are widely regarded as some of the best. You would also need a really tough piston. The lonex red is a good option, as are the SHS 15 steel tooth pistons. clandestineairsoft.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6_8&products_id=150Aside from that, shimming and AoE will be vital to making a 13:1 setup work. If you aren't 100% confident that you can get the shimming absolutely perfect, or if you've never done bevel-gear-first shimming before, then you probably don't want the 13:1 route, or even a 16:1 gear ratio. For any of these options a mosfet is necessary with an 11.1 battery. You shouldn't need active braking since you shouldn't be having any issues with overspin with a spring that strong. AB will just make the motor heat up when shooting a lot of semi auto. Just get a basic Fet that can handle a lot of power, a bunch of guys on airsoftmechanics make them. Here are a few gear options SHS v7 gears clandestineairsoft.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6_30_11&products_id=100RiotSC v7 13:1s It looks like riot also makes standard and torque gears for the v7 gearbox as well. forums.airsoftmechanics.com/index.php/topic,1208.0.html I'm not sure that Lonex makes v7 gears, but all of their other parts including piston heads, cylinder heads, spring guides, etc should be good to go as far as durability.
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Casper
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Post by Casper on Nov 14, 2012 19:30:47 GMT -5
Casper, I don't understand why you think it would require more voltage though. You are right that it will drain more mah, but with a 3300 mah battery shooting semi only this will never be an issue. The comment about me saying the few "series" connected pack is to demonstrate that the advice is another kind of ill-fated advice that is inline or similar to what ThompsonFTW dish out that shows it'll work, but durability is not in the consideration type.
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ctres
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Post by ctres on Nov 14, 2012 19:52:01 GMT -5
Oh, my bad, I guess I misinterpreted that. I thought you were saying he would need 20 volts to pull it.
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Post by ThompsonFTW on Nov 14, 2012 20:34:36 GMT -5
Yes its inefficient. However with the motors available today it won't put a ridiculous strain on the motor so why not do it. In comparison to high torque gears your trigger response will be godly.
Sent from my VS910 4G using proboards ThompsonFTW, I hope you know what you are talking about and can back it up. You might as well just ask him to run few battery pack in series to 20++ volts. It will not putting the strain on the motor but the strain will be put on to everything else downline and good luck with the gearset holding up. Also it'll drain the battery pack quicker and if the battery doesn't have high enough discharge rate to sustain the load you are killing the battery while doing so too. Hope the wiring will not having a meltdown in the process too. Short of Siegetek gearset I have yet seen any 13:1 gearset that can last in many less strenous setup let alone this. So please stay off of suggesting this kind of ill-advice technical stuff unless you are really know what you are doing unless you will pay for the fuck up in his parts down the road. So in short you are giving him build advice that is for very short term and it is a very stupid way to do it. He will be paying for the breakage consequense down the road not you so please take consideration into that. I can quarantied with my name on this that a 18:1 gearset with high torque motor will have quicker crisp response and more reliable setup that your suggestion with 13:1 gearset. PS: If anyone or mod feel I'm out of line or inappropriate in wording feel free to take appropriate action deem neccessary and I will accept any consequense with no hard feeling. [/quote] I have done and researched my fair share of DMR builds... Hell I built an AUG to be accurate out to 300ft on a m140... so yes, I do know what I am talking about... As to you saying gears will fail... what will make them fail? If you properly correct AOE and shim they shouldn't fail. Added stress to other parts of the gearbox? Sure if your running bearings in a m150 build they will fail... you act as if what I said isn't common. I read about builds much more strenuous than the one I mentioned all the time. I'm sorry for trying to give him the upper hand. On the note of batteries... if he can't find a battery capable of the sustaining the load he isn't looking in the right place. Hell I have a 11.1v 40c 2650mah battery that I got for $20 and I know for a fact it can pull that with ease. Sent from my VS910 4G using proboards
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Casper
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Post by Casper on Nov 14, 2012 23:57:08 GMT -5
Your setup that you have mentioned is like a Ferrari engineer trying to make a Ferrari using the 3rd gear as the first gear and just cramped a 1500HP engine into it to make it faster than an appropriate spec drivetrain setup. Both will work and both will be fast but which one will use less gas and maintenance and durable in real world usage with headroom until failure occur?
What I'm trying to say is there are way better and easier efficient way to built this setup instead of 13:1 gearset.
For instance wear on the gear teeth with the load it is putting on 13:1 gearset will be a lot more than let say 18.72:1 stock gear ratio gearset with M150. This is also applied into the pinion gear as well. Do you think the electrical efficiency will be better in this setup with 13:1 gear ratio is better than 18:1 gear ratio with M150? No.
Let's say both gearset have the exact identical material and harden process as well as welding process, with the load which setup you think will wear and fail sooner? And also remember each material have their own load tolerance limit and if it is well within the safe tolerance limit so this might be a moot point that when benchmark let say both will last at minimum of 200k semi shot and 99% of the build out there will not even reach this mark before it got sold or change out to other setup combination built. But hypothethically if in fact it does reach into the threshold lifecycle of the material fatique end limit for each the 13:1 gearset is worn at 200k semi shot while the 18:1 gearset still have enough life to run maybe another 50k semi only shot. And realistically these AEG gearset is market for leisure toys in small quantity so you think manufacturer really put a lot of R&D into it to make it last as compared to the material use in automotive brake rotor or the teeth set in the transmission which people's life is depending on it? What they do is just have strong enough material to make this parts to work with it's load tolerance and that's it. Siegetek gears is a perfect example that ideally what everyone wanted and wish how AEG parts should have produce and mass marketed to everyone, because his product is marketed after R&D like real world automotive or mass marketed product that find the fail point limit and spec the proper material and build process to use in the intended purpose for durability. Way too many failure that I've heard that even using M100-M120 spring the 13:1 gearset that either the sector gear or the spur gear(can't remember the exact which) that separate eachself which rendered it useless and have to junk it.
Battery wise since it will pull more amperage pershot with 13:1 gearset than 18:1 gearset with M150 so with the same battery it may only give lets say 1k shot before the battery needs to be recharge while with 18:1 gearset it may give 1.5k shot before it needs to be recharge. So which one is a more efficient setup?
Then the next point of failing is the motor itself. Why? The motor brush will wear out a lot faster with higher amp load in 13:1 gearset than 18:1 gearset with M150. Prove me wrong in this. Take the same exact built with just the 2 different gearset and do a continuosly semi shot at 2 shot persecond repeatedly and tell me which setup will likely to fail or overheat first.
I based my explanation on durability and mechanical efficiency built instead of "mix and match and pray it'll last" so you don't have to agree with me. Also please remember that how many people will make a follow up report that "Oh, my godly 13:1 gearset running M140 built that I post 4 months ago failed today due to something(wire melted under sustain semi only shot, pinion gear chipped or worn out etc...) broke down inside". I based my opinion on my build experience that I personally test it out in terms of durability expectation.
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Post by ThompsonFTW on Nov 15, 2012 7:10:08 GMT -5
I have already said its not as efficient. You can stop binding that up. If built correctly the gun will outlast his needs more than likely. Granted 72:1 gears would be the most reliable but does the mean 13:1 gears can't be reliable? No. Your trying to say that the 13:1 gears will fail every game. That's simply not true. If built correctly they should last a very long time.
As to the gear splitting. That has happened with SHS gears. That's why I mentioned getting shs gears with a gen 1 bevel where that isn't a problem.
Sent from my VS910 4G using proboards
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Casper
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Post by Casper on Nov 17, 2012 23:31:13 GMT -5
Just wondering if there is a better way why you keep insisting of a lesser way?
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Post by ThompsonFTW on Nov 18, 2012 0:57:22 GMT -5
Just wondering if there is a better way why you keep insisting of a lesser way? I didn't insist. You told me 13:1 gears on a m150 wouldn't work. I was pointing out it will. I would use 13:1s myself... Sent from my VS910 4G using proboards
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Post by Druxus on Nov 23, 2012 13:14:13 GMT -5
Here is my build Started as a jg dragunov that i got really cheap. Swapped out the plastic body for a metal one, made my own wood furniture. [img src=" img717.imageshack.us/img717/4130/imag0125p.jpg"[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/imag0125p.jpg/][/URL] As far as internals go it is still running the stock jg gearbox shell after 2 years of use. SHS high torque gears SHS half tooth piston M150 spring Lonex high torque motor 11.1 lipo home made Mosfet stock hopup promy 650mm barrel air seal nozzle, forgot the brand Corrected aoe, did a shim job, and sealed everything up. [img src=" img402.imageshack.us/img402/1074/imag0159iv.jpg" Uploaded with ImageShack.us][/img] Modded for single fire and only varies from that fps by 1 or 2 fps. I am good to engage targets to around 280ft, but by then there isn't much energy on the BB at that point. So you get the i see it hit through the scope but not always called. With the 11.1volt lipo and the Lonex motor It pulls that 150 spring back quick, so I'm not seeing the high torque gears being that slow. They are kinda loud, so I do see that claim, but with all my shots being far away I have never had anyone say they heard my gears when i was shooting at them.
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Post by Travis on Dec 8, 2012 16:15:10 GMT -5
Your setup that you have mentioned is like a Ferrari engineer trying to make a Ferrari using the 3rd gear as the first gear and just cramped a 1500HP engine into it to make it faster than an appropriate spec drivetrain setup. Both will work and both will be fast but which one will use less gas and maintenance and durable in real world usage with headroom until failure occur? They pretty much do that, but for second gear... It actually works better, because the long second gear allows them to put more amounts of power down even though the engine isn't in the powerband while still being able to use the powerband once wheelspin is not a factor. It's the same reason I left the stock 3.42 gears in the back of my S/C LT4 Camaro. What I'm trying to say is there are way better and easier efficient way to built this setup instead of 13:1 gearset. For instance wear on the gear teeth with the load it is putting on 13:1 gearset will be a lot more than let say 18.72:1 stock gear ratio gearset with M150. This is also applied into the pinion gear as well. Do you think the electrical efficiency will be better in this setup with 13:1 gear ratio is better than 18:1 gear ratio with M150? No. Let's say both gearset have the exact identical material and harden process as well as welding process, with the load which setup you think will wear and fail sooner? And also remember each material have their own load tolerance limit and if it is well within the safe tolerance limit so this might be a moot point that when benchmark let say both will last at minimum of 200k semi shot and 99% of the build out there will not even reach this mark before it got sold or change out to other setup combination built. But hypothethically if in fact it does reach into the threshold lifecycle of the material fatique end limit for each the 13:1 gearset is worn at 200k semi shot while the 18:1 gearset still have enough life to run maybe another 50k semi only shot. And realistically these AEG gearset is market for leisure toys in small quantity so you think manufacturer really put a lot of R&D into it to make it last as compared to the material use in automotive brake rotor or the teeth set in the transmission which people's life is depending on it? What they do is just have strong enough material to make this parts to work with it's load tolerance and that's it. Siegetek gears is a perfect example that ideally what everyone wanted and wish how AEG parts should have produce and mass marketed to everyone, because his product is marketed after R&D like real world automotive or mass marketed product that find the fail point limit and spec the proper material and build process to use in the intended purpose for durability. Way too many failure that I've heard that even using M100-M120 spring the 13:1 gearset that either the sector gear or the spur gear(can't remember the exact which) that separate eachself which rendered it useless and have to junk it. Let me just first say that I am not trying to personally attack you, Casper. I respect your argument and your way of approaching the challenge the OP has asked of the board is GOOD. But, to say someone else's idea is "lesser", because of what you've "heard" or because of "theoretical" problems, is about as off-putting as someone who's never gone skydiving saying it's impossible. You make a point in this part here by saying theoretically the higher gear ratio will definitely fail later in time than the 13:1 gearset. However, I think something that needs to be considered is that if the 13:1 DOESN'T FAIL for quite a while, then what's the point in saying it's worse? Also, technically, the total strain at play on the teeth of the gears doesn't really change much when you go from a 13:1 gearset to the 18:1... If you have a solid understanding of how torsion, shear stress, deformation, and toughness really come into play... you can understand that 18:1 as opposed to 13:1 on the same diameter gear will have thinner teeth, and the shear stress imposed on the individual teeth with a smaller thickness means increased internal shear force. It's offset by more teeth being engaged to divide up the stress, but still... not a big change. I feel like the material properties of the gear are way more important than tooth ratio. I can't say for sure, but from a mechanical standpoint... it would make sense. I've seen someone use 13:1's on guns that chrono in the 470 range. As far as I know, he's still using those gears. Battery wise since it will pull more amperage pershot with 13:1 gearset than 18:1 gearset with M150 so with the same battery it may only give lets say 1k shot before the battery needs to be recharge while with 18:1 gearset it may give 1.5k shot before it needs to be recharge. So which one is a more efficient setup? Then the next point of failing is the motor itself. Why? The motor brush will wear out a lot faster with higher amp load in 13:1 gearset than 18:1 gearset with M150. Prove me wrong in this. Take the same exact built with just the 2 different gearset and do a continuosly semi shot at 2 shot persecond repeatedly and tell me which setup will likely to fail or overheat first. You're totally right. With any quality motor, how long is that really going to take though... You get a faster trigger, and yeah, you may have to swap batteries out. But if you shoot a thousand rounds out of a semi-auto DMR in a game lasting any less than a day... You may need to think about building something else. I based my explanation on durability and mechanical efficiency built instead of "mix and match and pray it'll last" so you don't have to agree with me. Also please remember that how many people will make a follow up report that "Oh, my godly 13:1 gearset running M140 built that I post 4 months ago failed today due to something(wire melted under sustain semi only shot, pinion gear chipped or worn out etc...) broke down inside". I based my opinion on my build experience that I personally test it out in terms of durability expectation. All of that goes for both sides of the argument, pretty much. I think Thompson stated before that he's built a setup similar to what he described, and the world did not, in fact, end. If you have built something similar to what he's promoting and it failed miserably for you, then by all means say so. In response to the OP: Does trigger response time bug you at all? In real steel LR shooting, the trigger is IMO the most important part of the gun. I've been out of airsoft for a little while but got into it again for a few games the last couple weeks, and it was bugging the HELL out of me how long it took for the loaner-dmr I was using to actually go from pulling the trigger, to a round going down range. I thought I was using a flint lock. I can't believe no one's said this yet, but buy once cry once. Use the highest quality parts you can afford in your build and you won't be disappointed. Curious, what sort of budget are you planning on throwing at this? Don't know if you mentioned or not. Nevermind, I'm just mentally &^%$ing riterded... anyway. If you're dropping the money into a nice TM or G&G you'll be fine. another little piece of advice I can offer is FPS isn't everything. making your gun shoot in the same spot consistently is far better than an occasionally-erratic 500fps monster. I had a CYMA M14 with an M90 and a nice bucking. I used brasso on the barrel, and it would reach out and touch impressively far. You can make a very straight-shooting, longer distance gun under 420fps and be able to use it closer up. -Travis
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