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Post by X on Nov 10, 2012 21:36:40 GMT -5
So I was out with our squad and we realized that none of us have a gun with decent range. Everyone is running <350 FPS and none of our guns have that reach out and touch someone ability. So we sort of need a gun to fulfill that role. I am looking to pick up a decent DMR platform and upgrade the daylights out of it to make it something fearsome. As of right now I'm looking at the M14 because it looks like a nice solid platform to start at. I'm open to suggestions on other platforms, but I want to keep it semi realistic and no AK styled guns. As far as budget goes I would like to keep the total project <= about $500. I'm a little flexible on this if it's necessary.
Assuming I go down the M14 route I'm a little tossed up on which brand M14 to get, TM or G&G. I don't want the CA. I don't trust their QC.
TM: -Pros- Excellent Quality internals -14mm Threads for silencer Hop Up Cheaper mags
-Cons- Price Externals More difficult to takedown V7 Gearbox vs Ver. 2/3? on G&G
G&G: Opposite of above
I'm also tossed up on whether to get the Soc 16 or the full size M14. One thing to consider is that the Soc16 prohibits a scope due to the rail placement and limited eye relief of 99% of scopes.
I could really dig a Soc16 with a silencer, but that means I have to get a TM and I haven't seen any in stock or used yet.
Thoughts?
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Post by Legionnaire on Nov 10, 2012 22:33:34 GMT -5
If you plan on upgrading the daylights out of it, I don't see a need to limit your options to TM, or G&G. Are you set on the standard M14/SOC16 style? Cyma recently came out with some EBR models that would allow for numerous optic setups and the like.
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Post by X on Nov 11, 2012 12:25:39 GMT -5
I'm not big on EBRs actually. I haven't held one but I imagine it to be very front heavy. So yes I'm set on Socom 16 or M14. I would like the externals to be decent and the gearbox shell needs to be able to hold up to sustained abuse from a ~500 fps build. I'm not sure if the cyma fits those criteria. Something to look into though.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using proboards
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Post by ThompsonFTW on Nov 11, 2012 12:57:23 GMT -5
I can't comment on then external quality of CYMAs m14, but I do know that you will be able to keep most of the internals in the CYMA (more so than the TM...) Also, from my experience they will have a better stock airseal than G&G, but that's more of a gun to gun basis... just some food for thought.
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Post by Connors on Nov 11, 2012 13:31:30 GMT -5
I can't comment on then external quality of CYMAs m14, but I do know that you will be able to keep most of the internals in the CYMA (more so than the TM...) In a high FPS build, you most certainly will not be able to keep most of the stock internals, especially not the gears or motor. That kind of stress will strip the stock pot metal gears in no time due to the added tension of a stiffer high power spring. The only M14 worth buying is the TM. They're a bit pricey, and it's gonna be hard to find a one stateside, but it will have the best range and accuracy without dropping some bills into aftermarket barrel and hop-up. Remember, Marui has one of the best hop-up systems in the market. I run my M14 at about a 460ish setup, and even on a stock barrel and hop-up I can easily tag targets out to 200+ feet. However, there is one downfall to the TM hop-up; It is hard to find a replacement should you break it and very easy to break the hop-up chamber when assembling/disassembling the receiver. I have confirmed that the CYMA/Echo1 m14 hop-up chambers are NOT drop in replacements for a TM, even though they are described to be. I have tried both and had less than desirable results. Also, as for the gears themselves, the only gear that is proprietary to the Marui v7 box is the spur gear(the flat middle one). The bevel and sector gears are both identical to the ones used in the v2/3 boxes. This I have confirmed by using spare "v7" sector and bevel gears as parts in a v2 box. G&G does not have a Version 2/3 gearbox, but they do have a somewhat proprietary design and it's still a version 7. Some of the levers and latches on the external of the gearbox are different and not arranged the same way Marui did theirs. I have heard though, that G&G and G&P use the Version 2/3 gears in their v7 boxes, but that is just hearsay. Also TM has a different method of attaching the trigger. The trigger and safety on a TM and all it's mechanics are attached to the gearbox itself, whereas the G&G and G&P have it attached as a separate piece not part of the gearbox. The hop-up systems are also very different between the TM and the G&G and G&P models, I believe the G&G and G&P Hop-up are identical, but I am not 100% sure on that. Marui HopupG&G HopupG&P HopupG&G GearboxTM v7 gearboxMagazines are also somewhat proprietary. TM has it's own style, and I believe only Echo1 copied that. G&G and G&P have their own style, and i believe are interchangeable along with CA mags. For the TM route, try to stay away from King Arms and G&P(made for TM) Magazines. They feed horrible and tend to jam a lot. Get 6 or 7 TM standards and you'll have more than enough for a DMR setup. Your best bet at keeping a lower budget would be to score a used TM, and if it has no upgrades, source a guarder FTK, PDI 210% spring and a good high torque motor, and you'll be set. If you go the TM route, you will need to get a replacement anti-reversal. The stock ones crap out very fast. Guarder makes a steel on for about 20 bucks and they are usually in stock most places. With a Marui, the tight bore and hop-up overhauls can wait until something breaks or needs replacement. This is the same setup I have and it has yet to fail on me. A good DMR is by no means cheap, and is really only a small step down from the high end sniper rifle world.
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ctres
New Member
Posts: 955
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Post by ctres on Nov 11, 2012 22:48:03 GMT -5
If you plan on upgrading the daylights out of it I generally prefer something that is really solid externally, which rules out cyma and probably TM as well. If I were to do it I would choose G&G for that reason, although if you are still open to other options a more modern 7.62 weapon like a scar H would be cooler in my opinion.
TM does not have any sort of magic dust in their internals, but with that said, I know that their m14 hop up is widely considered to be one of the best designs, however, a hop up has three main purposes 1. feed the BBs effectively 2. Provide proper airseal 3. Provide accurate and consistent spin to the BB. Although TM m14 may have one of (if not the best) stock hop up systems, any hop up system design can be modified to effectively do all of the things I listed above just as well as the TM, PROVIDED that you have the patience to do the work and research yourself as well as a bit of experimentation to find the optimal parts for your setup. Also for a DMR an R hop would probably be a great investment. I still haven't gotten around to putting one in my 416 but it is high on the list and I hear awesome things about it.
As far as gearbox parts, there are way better upgrades than guarder FTKs around now. Check out brands like siegetek/riotSC gears, Lonex and SHS.
Things like AOE, and proper shimming will be vital as well. If you haven't done it before check out the bevel gear shimming method.
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Post by Phantom G3 on Nov 12, 2012 8:18:37 GMT -5
I was just a little curious for your answer: X, since this will only be a DMR and not an actual assault rifle (I mean by assaulting with it, of course), have you thought of a GBBR M14? I know stock FPS is nice on them (in the high 400's) and I have heard pretty nice things on the WE M14 (surprisingly). You could put RS parts on it.
The mags on them may be pricey just like any other GBBR, but since it is a DMR, I don't think you will be needing a lot of mags like an assault rifle would need. Ra-Tech makes some nice upgrades for them.
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Post by X on Nov 12, 2012 11:52:09 GMT -5
I am leaning towards the G&G for a couple reasons.
1) It's way cheaper (almost $200 difference for the used guns I'm looking at) 2) Better Externals 3) I'm going to R-hop so the TM hop-up is going to be changed anyway. Pretty sure when you violate a TM hop-up like that you lose the TM magic.
As far as the WE M14 goes, I have had too many issues with my WE 1911 to trust them. The GBB action would be really cool no doubt but the issues of gas in cold weather, WE QC and expensive 20 rd. mags turn me off to much to really consider it. Also the hop-up (from what I've briefly read) takes parts from a vsr-10 and the barrel is that of a TM GBB style. Maybe that last part isn't true, but I'm too iffy on it to drop $300.
I have considered something like the scar-h, SR25, but the more I look at them the more I like the m14.
I just noticed the G&G Socom 16 is going for a reasonable $255 on Airsplat (ugh).
Another thing I should probably mention is that this will be a DMR, but I don't plan on significantly changing my play style in terms of movement. Of course shooting at such a high velocity I will need to be much more careful than I am now with a 340 FPS build, but I still plan on pushing objectives and getting into the shit with everyone else. My WE 1911 should be able to handle anything closer than 50ft and I have my teammates to rely on if it gets too intense for the pistol.
Hmm just started thinking about the island at No Limits...
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Impulse
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Ayatollah Rock n' Rolla
And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle.
Posts: 534
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Post by Impulse on Nov 12, 2012 17:50:55 GMT -5
I've been using a G&G M14 since '09 and I still swear by it all the way. Quality internals? Check. I have never had to open the gearbox up and replace anything, and the gun's certainly had its fair share of rounds downrange. Also, the hop's a beauty, I haven't had a lot of experience with the TM's but with my G&G I can easily float .25 rounds out to 200' while only getting 330 FPS with .20's. Biggest downsides so far have been magazines - they are expensive, but CA's 180 round midcaps are pretty reliable; I haven't had any fail thus far. The other is the front sight post - it's only attached with a set screw, so it WILL fall off if you don't tighten it up every game. I've lost two. This is less of an issue if you're planning on putting optics on it - which I plan to do but haven't spent the money yet. Overall though, it's been a reliable weapon that's brushed off four seasons of abuse.
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Post by X on Nov 12, 2012 19:39:47 GMT -5
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Impulse
New Member
Ayatollah Rock n' Rolla
And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle.
Posts: 534
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Post by Impulse on Nov 12, 2012 22:53:17 GMT -5
tbh I think the G&G M14 will accept a RS M14 compensator... but I'm not 100% on that yet. Will likely give it a try in the future.
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Post by X on Nov 13, 2012 17:10:42 GMT -5
Well I'm buying Ike's G&G M14. I'm also still hunting for a TM Socom 16. I put in an offer on one a couple hours ago. If I get the Socom 16 I know of a few good homes the M14 could go to, otherwise I will keep it all to myself! Thanks for the help guys. Of course any other input you guys have is always appreciated. I'm still a little in the dark about exactly what will need to be upgraded. I'm going to be researching this over the next few days, but if you would like to add your knowledge I will take it. So far I'm assuming these things are a must: Required?: 1) M150 Spring (Should be about 500 FPS? Depends on air seal) 2) Torque motor 3) Torque Gears 4) Piston- somewhat of a question mark here as I want this to be the fail point since this is the cheap part. 5) Metal Spring Guide 6) Piston Head 7) Cylinder Head 8) MOSFET 9) 16awg Wiring 10) Deans Excluding 1,8,9,10; Are any of those things optional? Also what are your recommendations on the Piston Head and Cylinder Head? I imagine that those coupled with the hop-up are going to be the driving factor in consistent compression.
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Post by ThompsonFTW on Nov 13, 2012 18:19:25 GMT -5
Of course any other input you guys have is always appreciated. I'm still a little in the dark about exactly what will need to be upgraded. I'm going to be researching this over the next few days, but if you would like to add your knowledge I will take it.
So far I'm assuming these things are a must:
Required?: 1) M150 Spring (Should be about 500 FPS? Depends on air seal) 2) Torque motor This is a good idea because it will accelerate faster than a speed motor and be more efficient. Take a look at either an AMP or lonex motor. Why those? The both have tremendous amounts of torque which will be a plus... will explain more on that later. (Suggest checking out hivemindairsoft.com and clandestinrairsoft.com(?) For parts.) 3) Torque Gears This is a no-no. While they will be reliable they are SLOW and LOUD. Both of these are bad for a DMR. Especially the slow part. I suggest a 13:1 gear ratio. Again lonex is a good brand. Shs isn't bad but you want it to be the gen 1 bevel. These gears are cheap and fairly durable. Now, let me get back to why a torquey motor is important. Obviously 13:1 gears will put a lot of strain on your motor. Therefore you have to compensate with a really nice motor. However, this means you will get lightening fast trigger response, this is essential in a DMR build. Wrote all this then remembered your using a m14... the gears may not be interchangeable with v2/v3. I'll leave that for you to look into. 4) Piston- Don't build a gun to fail. Here you said you wanted this to be the weakest part... lets make it just as strong as the rest. That being said I suggest a lonex red piston. (10 metal teeth IIRC) this piston is extremely strong because the metal rack is reinforced and won't cave in like the shs piston. Downside is they are heavy. Luckily your doing a DMR build and we won't have to worry about it. In fact I have heard more weight is good for a DMR build. (Can't say I know that's true.) 5) Metal Spring Guide 6) Piston Head Take a look into element piston head. Gives great seal and is cheap. 7) Cylinder Head 8) MOSFET various ones to look into. My current favorite basic mosfet is bludragon's mosfet. 9) 16awg Wiring 10) Deans
Excluding 1,8,9,10; Are any of those things optional?
Also what are your recommendations on the Piston Head and Cylinder Head? I imagine that those coupled with the hop-up are going to be the driving factor in consistent compression.
Gears (not entirely sure TM gears will hold up), possibly motor depending on how torquey it is, piston head depending on airseal and cylinder head depending on air seal.
You forgot to mention the airnozzle which is essential to consistency. You may want to look into bushings. I know tm doesn't come stock with metal ones.
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Post by X on Nov 13, 2012 18:39:50 GMT -5
Oh yeah I totally forgot about the TM plastic bushings. I'm probably going to have to have a G&G build and a TM build going until I figure out which one I'm going to actually have/keep.
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Post by ThompsonFTW on Nov 13, 2012 18:47:48 GMT -5
Gears (not entirely sure TM gears will hold up), possibly motor depending on how torquey it is, piston head depending on airseal and cylinder head depending on air seal. Forgot to finish my thought here, all of these things could be kept.
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