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Post by tankleader on Aug 8, 2012 5:43:32 GMT -5
Jason, That Mesh bit was meant for face, and not eye protection. Eye protection was always ANSI approved googles.
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TICK
New Member
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Post by TICK on Aug 8, 2012 8:32:47 GMT -5
yeah I thought mesh face protection was allowed, but not mesh eye protection. Need to be a little more clear so not to cause confusion and alarm.
As for the Polar Stars, Id say just dont allow Polar Stars. Its far to easy for the owner to turn up the air pressure or adjust the weapon out on the field to shoot over the allowed fps. And in my opinion I dont see banning them being a problem, its not like a ton of people use them.
And I agree the time in between matches needs to be shortened. 10 or 15 minutes tops is plenty of time to come back and reload mags, get water, heck even change clothes if needed. No more of this 20 and 30 minute waits. This needs to be strongly enforced, nothing will make a person not want to come back faster then sitting around wasting time not playing.
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Post by AtsJason on Aug 8, 2012 12:58:15 GMT -5
Ok as for the mesh, eye protection must be full seal goggles. No Mesh. Mesh lowers are Ok.
And about the P*s, we are in contact with the HQ. If the only solution is chronoing in the field we will have to prohibit P* usage.
Update: More pictures have been added to the album in the original post.
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Post by Knief on Aug 8, 2012 13:26:05 GMT -5
If I can offer some advice from my own hosting experience, I've found that equipment is almost never the cause of cheating. That shit would play by the rules every time if its operator wasn't such a dick. The best way then to quell cheating is to enforce rules based on players rather than equipment. In this case, it's relatively simple. Tell players at the start of the day what the rules are and that olayers with easily adjusted FPS are not to change it without seeking out a ref and rechronoing. You tell them that if they do, they'll be kicked out and not welcome back, no questions asked. This part is important: don't tell them you'll be spot checking on the field. Make sure that when you chrono everybody, you tag them according to their FPS range. That is, use colored tape or zip ties to mark guns where green means under 350, yellow means 350-410, and red means 410-550.
Then, during the day, spot check P* and PTW users with a handheld chrono. Don't make a fuss about it at first. Find a straggler who isn't sneaking up on the bad guys and tell him you need to run a couple of rounds through his gun. Take the gun immediately so he can't adjust anything while you fumble with the mag and suh. Use your own .2g bbs for this. Remember here that airsoft guns aren't perfect amd as temperatures rise throughout the day, gas guns gain power. But the difference between creep and an unfair adjustment should be obvious. Keep checking guys until you fimd a cheater. When you do, make a big deal about kicking him out. Do it loudly and in plain sight of the other players. Before the next game, let everybody know what you did and why you did it. be sure to explain both that he is not welcome back and that you will be posting a list of players who cheat like this on all of the forums you visit (you don't have to do this, but nobody here would complain). Spot check for the rest of the day and do the same to anybody with a hot P* or PTW.
I promise you that after two weeks of this, you'll never have another problem.
Telling players that they have to leave your game or that they can't use a hot gun or substandard eyepro or whatever and that they'll have to hit the road is always the worst part about hosting. You're immediately a dick in that guy's eyes. It's so much easier to just let it slide. But you have to remember that you posted the rules explicitly. You covered them in the briefing, and they're the same rules that every other game in the state follows. If players are showing up unprepared, it's not your fault. Your obligation is to the rest of your players--the guys who want to follow the rules, play safely, and have fun. If you're a hardass to the few who break the rules, everybody else will respect you that much more. You're stepoing up to bat for them, not yourself. They know that you're in an uncomfortable situation and that you're dealing with it on their behalf because at your field, you're the hosts are tue only people with the authority to do so.
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Post by AtsJason on Aug 8, 2012 13:37:24 GMT -5
Well spoken. It's the one way to make things work.
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Post by Gimpalong on Aug 8, 2012 13:40:53 GMT -5
I agree with that Knief has posted.
The easiest thing to do is what was done at Northern Light.
Chrono the P* user and then tag their gun with a zip-tie indicating FPS AND with a label that indicates the PSI at which their gun is operating. If there are complaints, run the gun over a chrono AND check the tag against what the regulator is then showing. If the PSI written on the tag differs from the PSI shown on the reg then the player has adjusted their reg and should be removed. Many P* users also use regulators that can be adjusted on the fly, without tools. For these regulators, require tournament locks.
P* guns aren't going anywhere. If anything they are gaining in popularity and you're very likely to see more and more of them on the field. Banning them isn't a very good solution, especially in light of the fact that Ares, CTW/PTW and ICS rifles can be adjusted the same way.
Not everyone who uses a P* is a dick who disregards the safety of others.
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Post by AtsJason on Aug 8, 2012 13:52:23 GMT -5
Also agreed. Once we finish our conference with P* HQ we will make our decision.
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Post by tankleader on Aug 8, 2012 15:31:04 GMT -5
I agree with everything that has been stated here. I've been to one field that when P*Stars walk on everyone walks off. Me personally have them run as DMR's, or just tell them sorry not allowed. I also believe in the spot chrono which works if players no it is being enforced. At one event I played at they check players at the end of a game and if it was obvious that they cheated they we added to a ban list. You will always have problems and those problems need to be addressed as they occur since you will never cover everything...
Tanks Andy
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Zdybel
New Member
Im Zdybel Dig up old Facebook Posts bcuz im 1337
Posts: 786
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Post by Zdybel on Aug 8, 2012 15:33:04 GMT -5
Hey Jason, Nice pic of me with my DEVGRU thumbs up. You sir get some brownie points.
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Post by Gimpalong on Aug 8, 2012 15:57:17 GMT -5
I've been to one field that when P*Stars walk on everyone walks off. Not to derail the thread, but, frankly, that's just silly. A P* doesn't do a whole lot more than a highly tuned AEG. If the P* is chronoing at sub-400fps with .20s and actually shooting .20s then it isn't any different than any other AEG on the field. It might have a quick trigger response or a high ROF, but both of those qualities are achievable with AEGs. I'd rather P*s not be restricted solely to DMR settings because I think the proliferation of extremely fast trigger response, high FPS set-ups on the field would lead to more injuries and complaints, not less. I can probably count on two hands the number of truly solid, semi-auto DMRs I've seen on the field. Now imagine an entire squad of DMR P*s shooting 500fps at 10-13rps on semi-auto. I'm a P* user myself and that would definitely get me to walk off the field. My P* (stock settings, blue nozzle, 100psi, 360fps with .20s, semi-auto only) is basically an AEG with a gas tank. It doesn't have magical powers that make it shooter farther or "harder" than other AEGs pushing the same velocity.
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Post by tankleader on Aug 8, 2012 16:39:55 GMT -5
Gimpalong, You come to the heart of the issue with the P*stars, getting owners to stay at the FPS levels that you suggest. I know hot guns have been addressed in other posts, but will eventually be addressed again with guns coming in over 400 out of the box, especially if you buy them from a foreign source. As long as people see themselves at a disadvantage the limits will be pushed. Lots of good comments here.
Tanks Andy
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Post by trackman800 on Aug 8, 2012 18:34:35 GMT -5
Hello im Oneshotonemiss's oldest son part of the crew who had the p*s. I have been following the postings from ATS and do not want to make anybody angry. I know many of the HOG guys play in events that P*s have been banned and truly understand there concern.
We have been running P*s since last November and started out with .25 bbs and have since switched to .40s. After examining numerous charts we found the joules for impact with .20s and 409.99 is about the same as .40's at 300 fps. All of are rifles actually run the gold nozzle (one lower then the stock blue nozzle) and in order to hit 300 fps with a .40 requires a psi of 115 to 118 depending on each individual rifle. We use gold so that we can still play CQB with the same rifle (blue wont go low enough).The recommended maximum psi before damage can be done to the p* unit is 120 which might add 5 to 10 fps leaving us around 310 at most.
Our intent is not to hurt people at all. As we all know all rifles use hop-ups and sometimes bb's can get away from us. None of us ever try to hit people in the head but it definitely can and does happen.
P* are like guns, guns don't kill people, people kill people. the same thing is true for us p* users there are people that break the system on purpose and we definitely have tried not to. Every time the ref used the chrono we were below 409.99 with .2s. Evan as an attempt to accommodate we lowered are PSI and tried to lengthen the engagements over 20 ft.
As a form to help with any uncertainty i believe there should be a sticker placed across the upper and lower receiver that we put the initial PSI used at chrono. Not only will this work as a reference but it also stops people from cracking the gearbox open and changing the nozzle on the field. As for the tank regulator are group will look into getting tourney locks that we can give to the mods. Until then i believe putting an excessive amount of tape over the regulator and spot checks of p* users in the field could cover almost every base.
I know that many people have played with us over the last 3 years that we have been involved in this sport and most have had nothing bad to say other then we are aggressive. The last thing we want to do is hurt somebody. More importantly we have always tried to play with honor and integrity. Has there been a few times that we have not called a hit... probably. Sometimes with gear, adrenaline, a dead out sprint, or the snapping of branches you just don't realize it.
Airsoft is a relief from the everyday grind and though we take it seriously we still want to have a good time. But i promise honesty and integrity are still the most important and we certainly try to uphold any forum rules.
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Post by Knief on Aug 8, 2012 18:40:08 GMT -5
Just an FYI, if you're shooting over 350 FPS, your minimum engagement distance is already 20 feet. If you have at any tie engaged a target within that distance with your 409FPS P*, you've violated a major safety rule.
Moreover, .2g bbs shot at 410 FPS have a muzzle energy of 1.55J. For .40g bbs to have a muddle energy of 1.55J, they must have a muzzle velocity of 288 FPS. IF you're hitting 300 FPS with .40s, you're hitting 1.66J, which is equivalent to 422 FPS. And that extra 10 FPS boost you're talking about puts you well above the 410 limit. That's another major safety rule violation.
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Post by trackman800 on Aug 8, 2012 18:44:21 GMT -5
I meant much further than the obvious 20 ft engagement limit. So we tried to stay 30 to 35.
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Post by Knief on Aug 8, 2012 18:48:06 GMT -5
Check my edit above.
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