nitiwat
New Member
Baconator
Posts: 122
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Post by nitiwat on Sept 17, 2011 22:49:30 GMT -5
Ah okay. I thought you had some custom made holy grail golden gearbox or something
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Post by Knief on Sept 18, 2011 7:05:55 GMT -5
What do you mean? I do.
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Post by Ike on Sept 18, 2011 14:06:31 GMT -5
What do you mean? I do. Ehhhhhhhhh... Gear looks good though. And I envy your team patches, they look awesome.
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Post by Dahm on Sept 18, 2011 14:28:39 GMT -5
How exactly is the PTW not the holy grail of gearboxes? Its an amazing system and unmatched in performance.
/discussion
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Post by Ike on Sept 18, 2011 14:56:41 GMT -5
The realism functions are neat although have been done with other MOSFETS. As for the performance, their hop-ups seem to be mediocre at best out of the box from the PTWs that I've seen/used (Tollis had his modded by JD, and Tackleberry, who I believe owns the PTW forums, also offers a service for improving the hopup), and the rate of fire is about average. The range, accuracy, and rate of fire can all be surpassed with a standard AEG system for much, much cheaper. I do like the ability to change out cylinders quickly, but it still doesn't justify the cost of the entire gun, the cylinders themselves, the mags, etc.
I guess my question is, what makes it such an amazing system and what can it do that a regular AEG cannot do?
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Post by Knief on Sept 18, 2011 17:01:26 GMT -5
Run for 5 years at 400-550 FPS without being opened once is what it does that other AEGs can't. Though SystemA had a run of bad motors that put a major chink in the PTW reliability armor, the gearbox is basically bulletproof. The design is far better than the conventional TM design. It's a lower stress environment with fewer breakable parts that can deliver more power with less battery. It's just a better gearbox.
The hop up is designed (stupidly) for .20g bbs because SystemA imagined that PTW owners would only use SystemA's bbs. This was obviously foolish. The hop up mod that Tackleberry popularized is just putting a larger roller on there. He found a good tubing for it (R/C Helicopter fuel line) and kept it a secret for as long as he could to make some cash doing it for folks (no fault for him there, he had a skill and sold it).
Once you've taken care of that, your range really improves. Actionman had a one-shot hit measured out to 97 yards at Bangor a few years ago. I use that as an example because we actually measured, so I'm sure most could duplicate that fairly easy. I can't say I've really ever been out ranged while using my PTW.
As far as ROF goes, you are right that you're pretty limited to the ROF that the gun offers because it's electronically controlled. I don't see that as a problem because I don't see the point in a high ROF build. We're talking about a gun specifically designed around military simulation and training, so it has a ROF similar to that of a real M4. I'd rather have a gun that does that than a 30 rps hose. I lose my realism with that kind of build. The trigger response on the PTW, however, is second to none. Even with a stiff cylinder, you've got better trigger response than just about any gun on the field.
For me, it comes down to whether I'd rather put in months of effort to build a gun that can't quite do everything that my PTW does for the same cost, or buy a PTW and have the quick change cylinders (far more valuable than you might think) and the little things like a correctly sized pistol grip and receiver, and the ability to slap on real steel accessories. There's no question in my mind which is the way to go.
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Post by Dahm on Sept 18, 2011 17:22:16 GMT -5
Don't forget about trigger response with a lipo. The PTW has unmatched RELIABLE trigger response with a 15C lipo battery throughout its cylinder lineup.
Crap this makes me want a PTW again.
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Post by Ike on Sept 18, 2011 17:33:06 GMT -5
Run for 5 years at 400-550 FPS without being opened once is what it does that other AEGs can't. Though SystemA had a run of bad motors that put a major chink in the PTW reliability armor, the gearbox is basically bulletproof. The design is far better than the conventional TM design. It's a lower stress environment with fewer breakable parts that can deliver more power with less battery. It's just a better gearbox. How many rounds would you say you've put through it in those 5 years? And is there a way to mod it permanently to semi-auto for MIA games? From my understanding and reading: It does have the advantage of having a larger motor which from what I've read is more torque-oriented (always good), and the final ratio of the gears comes out to around 27:1, close to standard torque up gears. I have to agree that that is a very low-stress setup so should hold up well. However, other things I've noticed. If something does break, you seem to be in for a wild ride. Motors seem to be around $200 and gear sets slightly less. Tollis had an issue with his PTW (electronics, I believe) and had to send it to Z-Shot. When he got it back (something to the tune of $200 later), it still wasn't shooting. He's having some motor issues now. The hop up is designed (stupidly) for .20g bbs because SystemA imagined that PTW owners would only use SystemA's bbs. This was obviously foolish. The hop up mod that Tackleberry popularized is just putting a larger roller on there. He found a good tubing for it (R/C Helicopter fuel line) and kept it a secret for as long as he could to make some cash doing it for folks (no fault for him there, he had a skill and sold it). According to Tollis, that's basically what JD did to his. While it did see a range increase it still wasn't reaching as far as my G&P M4 (400fps), and he was using an M140 (130?) cylinder. Both using Hailstorm .25s, so I suspect that there was still some sort of underlying issue, maybe having to do with the fact that Tollis machined his inner barrel down to 300mm by himself. And I'll admit that one instance doesn't prove a damn thing, I'm just recounting my observations. Once you've taken care of that, your range really improves. Actionman had a one-shot hit measured out to 97 yards at Bangor a few years ago. I use that as an example because we actually measured, so I'm sure most could duplicate that fairly easy. I can't say I've really ever been out ranged while using my PTW. As far as ROF goes, you are right that you're pretty limited to the ROF that the gun offers because it's electronically controlled. I don't see that as a problem because I don't see the point in a high ROF build. We're talking about a gun specifically designed around military simulation and training, so it has a ROF similar to that of a real M4. I'd rather have a gun that does that than a 30 rps hose. I lose my realism with that kind of build. The trigger response on the PTW, however, is second to none. Even with a stiff cylinder, you've got better trigger response than just about any gun on the field. That is a very impressive shot; although nothing an AEG can't reach out to. I already have plans for my newest AEG to see how close I can come at 400fps. My G&P was reaching out to 220ft or so according to my tape measure and confirmed by Google Earth. That was at 400fps, and I have some plans for this next gun to improve on that at the same power level. Rate of fire comes down to personal preference and playing style, I can see both sides of that argument. Which is why I love my Stealth Raptor FET, because I can program my rate of fire to 10, 15, or 20rps, or leave it unrestricted altogether. I can also add 3-round burst to my fire selector by basically plugging in a new battery and pulling the trigger in the correct sequence. I like a higher rate of fire for cutting through brush and being able to put more rounds downrange when I need to. I have a teammate with a PTW, and one with a CTW, and while the trigger response is nice, I feel like my neo-magnet high torque motors with an 11.1v lipo at least matches the response.. This is a tricky thing to measure though, so it'd be splitting hairs to debate. I'd love to compare side by side with your PTW if you host another game at Farmington this winter though. For me, it comes down to whether I'd rather put in months of effort to build a gun that can't quite do everything that my PTW does for the same cost, or buy a PTW and have the quick change cylinders (far more valuable than you might think) and the little things like a correctly sized pistol grip and receiver, and the ability to slap on real steel accessories. There's no question in my mind which is the way to go. Pistol grip and receiver specs are undeniable advantages to a PTW, and will most likely never be replicated with the current AEG system unfortunately. In the end, it comes down to playing style and how much you value some of the features such as the cylinders. For you, a PTW is the clear choice. For me, I probably wouldn't touch one even if an I had the chance to pick up a PTW for the price of a CTW or less.
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Post by Thor on Sept 18, 2011 17:33:23 GMT -5
Knief is right on the money. Really the only issues you can ever run into with a PTW are going to be one of three things:
A 2008-ish era PTW with the junk 490 motor. Poor performance from the hop-up. A failure of one of the electrical components (ECU 1 or 3 are the biggest culprits if I remember correctly).
The first problem is solved by replacing the motor with either an older series 480 motor, or I believe the newer yet motors solved the issues inherent with the 490 series. But if you have a gun that is either pre-2008 or more recent (late '09 or later, I think, not 100% on that), it shouldn't be an issue.
2nd problem is fixed how Knief already described.
3rd problem is solved through simple maintenance. PTW's don't like extremes. They don't like being cold or wet. The optical sensors don't like being dirty for extended periods of time, it tends to cause problems and burn them out.
PTW's are exactly like expensive Italian sportscars. If you take them out every weekend and thrash on them and then put them away wet, they will break down and it will be expensive. However if you make sure to do proper cleaning and maintenance on them after you're done, they can last a long time.
PTW's are the pinnacle of AEG's from an engineering standpoint, but for the vast majority of people, they're unnecessary. And this is coming from someone who used to try to sell them to law enforcement agencies.
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Post by cqbr on Sept 18, 2011 18:19:18 GMT -5
HOLY PTW DERAILMENT BATMAN!!
LULZ @ the arguments as they're always the same and will prolly never change.
Dig the gearz Knief. Only two things I would swap out is the CB MAP for a Khaki one, and the M60 type pouch for a more 'correct' looking EI one. A helmet would also top it off.
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Post by Knief on Sept 18, 2011 20:27:03 GMT -5
Yeah, the M60 pouch was a handmedown from Koko when I bought a CIRAS from him. It was a decent dump pouch until I picked up a much better dump pouch. I want to get an IFAK to fill that spot instead. The MAP is a little lower on my priority list, probably because I don't have to look at it. But I'll pick up a Khaki replacement eventually.
Ike,
I'm heading to bed right now, but I'll be able to give you a much more thorough response tomorrow. I would love to throw our guns up side by side and check out the difference. Hopefully we run across each other at a game soon.
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Post by M.S.-ARC on Sept 30, 2011 18:27:53 GMT -5
Here's a little teaser of the G&P limited edition (weathered) MK23 Stoner. This is probably the only one in Michigan right now. More pictures to come over the weekend.
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Zerox
New Member
SK-14
Posts: 316
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Post by Zerox on Sept 30, 2011 19:21:18 GMT -5
Arc, It looks really good. You've effectively made me jealous in epic proportions. ;D
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Post by M.S.-ARC on Oct 2, 2011 19:46:42 GMT -5
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Post by Mles on Oct 2, 2011 20:08:23 GMT -5
Trijicon Reflex.
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