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Post by Chaos on Nov 5, 2010 21:31:43 GMT -5
used by certain divisions of the armed forces. Not everything the military uses is cool. Proof...
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Post by BoredKender on Nov 5, 2010 21:42:07 GMT -5
Hell, in AIT we are still being issued these pieces of shit
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Nov 6, 2010 0:21:51 GMT -5
So think about this logically then. If you think he's making up the shotgun shit. Then logically he's lying to you. If that's true, then what in the world would make you think he's telling the truth about anything else. And for the record this whole thread is logically full of bullshit. Well the only thing that is coming into question is the stupid shotgun. Maybe I just misunderstood him when he was talking about it. He probably was thinking it would be cool to have a shotgun like that. Besides, people in the special forces are able to choose what their load-outs are whether they go with a standard load-out or they use some non-standard equipment. So the shotgun thing could possibly be true. The cross-draw vests are used in the military in some cases, that is true. The whole reason I made this thread was to clear up the issue with cross-draw vests. People will wear whatever equipment they like. I just don't like how people criticize others if they have a cross-draw vest in their load-out. For instance I use a cross-draw vest and it works for me, I understand there are other options for LBE, but I like the cross-draw vests because they fit my needs. If I need to reconfigure my gear because the vest I use no longer suits my needs I will get a new rig. People need to stop criticizing everyone just because they don't have an equally awesome load-out of gear. To each their own. The terminology between magazines and clips is also true. I came to that conclusion with research. It is inexcusable to mix these terms up.
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Post by Knife on Nov 6, 2010 0:33:39 GMT -5
Non standard weapons are different than non standard gear, even among the SOF community. A double barreled shotgun isn't something you're going to see because of the fact that you're limited to two shots before reloading as far as I know. Even as far as gear goes, personal purchases are minimal, most SOF groups get issued tons of kit that they can pick and choose from and for the most part its standard among them. Until you get to the higher echelon groups do you see much in the way of different platforms among users.
Second, people criticizing/recommending against a cross draw is not wrong, and its not about having an equally awesome load-out. There are heavy drawbacks to using a crossdraw, I used one when I first started as well and its failings were quite apparent.
While SOF communities have used non MOLLE vests in the passed, there is[/s] a valid reason that they don't use them anymore. For the most part, they are inferior to newer MOLLE rigs and armor carriers. Crossdraws are even further inferior because of the near illogical placement of pouches. I'd recommend a vest with all M4 pouches or a mix of M4 pouches and utility pouches over a crossdraw. I'd then mount the pistol either on my belt, in a dropleg or run it in a M4 pouch on the vest. You'll be able to reload more efficiently on top of having a quicker draw on your sidearm should the need arise.
While it may work for you, it works innefficiently. Chances are you'd be better off with another rig, why gimp yourself when there are options that are available, even at the same price point in many cases.
Also, saying that vests are justified because higher end gear companies make them is an invalid argument. Just because a nice company makes something doesn't mean its good.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Nov 6, 2010 0:52:31 GMT -5
Yeah I understand, you make a valid point.
Right now I'm using my Cross-draw vest because it works for me and I am not prepared to start spending all my money on gear. I eventually will get a better chest rig, but I still like using my vest because it is a simple piece of gear. I will be eventually moving into a nicer chest rig that I can customize, but that is something I will be doing in the future and it is not a high priority item on my airsoft to do list yet because I wanna buy a Gas bolt action rifle and get that all set first. Then I'll have my complete load-out of guns and I can focus on my gear. I like to be fiscally responsible, so I save up my money for one thing at a time. I don't like draining my bank account until it is empty. I'll probably get a new molle chest rig in the summer while I'm upgrading the rifle I am buying this winter.
What I am trying to say is that people shouldn't hate on the newer people that use the vest. We all have been at that stage in our airsoft adventuring and everyone eventually moves toward getting better equipment. The non-molle vests are a good stepping stone. Since they are already configured you can use them to figure out what works and what you want to change, so when you get a molle chest rig you have an idea of where you want to put all the pouches and accessories.
If someone decided to jump right into getting a molle rig they wouldn't have a good idea of where they want everything to go onto it. It would be a mess trying to figure it out. The non-molle vests are good learning experiences and help guide people to getting the rig they want and what works best for them. That is truly why I see value in that type of vest. It allows for natural progression from rec airsoft to hardcore Mil-Sim.
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Post by glassarchitect on Nov 6, 2010 0:55:05 GMT -5
I'm going to be blunt here. Cross-draws are cheap. They are barely customizable, which is a big thing in Airsoft. Even if they are used in the military, for the most part they are widely considered a n00b vest due to their low price and wide availability. They may work for some people, but I personally hate them. Nowhere near the customization I want, not as comfortable... I cringe every time I see Stargate or whatever show uses them, and I see the cross-draws.
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Post by Fugazi on Nov 6, 2010 3:08:20 GMT -5
It's not like 90% of MiA is elitist (don't quote me on that), but most members generally use the things that work best. If crossdraws were the way to go, I know I'd have one. Since I NEVER use my pistol, I keep it on my right thigh. Since I ALWAYS use my mags, they go on the front of my PC. Sure, crossdraws are a stepping stone. It beats putting your mags in your pocket, and hey, at least you have gear! But getting it simply because it's $10 cheaper than a Molle vest/Plate carrier isn't a legitimate reason. When you decide you're tired of AR variants and want to use a P90, an L96, or an AK, what will you do? Rip off the old pouches and sew new ones on? Or get a Molle, buy new pouches, and call it a day? The choice for me is rather clear.
I got a CIRAS, lightly used for $60. I've switched from an MP5, to an M4, to a P90, to an L96, to a UMP, to a TAR-21, to another MP5, and I'm selling my TAR-21 for another gun. That's not even including sidearms. You're gonna switch guns sooner or later, save the money now.
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Post by Judge on Nov 6, 2010 4:48:06 GMT -5
Hell, in AIT we are still being issued these pieces of shit In who's AIT? I had the new molle FLC.
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Post by Zorak on Nov 6, 2010 10:33:53 GMT -5
Besides, people in the special forces are able to choose what their load-outs are whether they go with a standard load-out or they use some non-standard equipment. So the shotgun thing could possibly be true. People need to stop criticizing everyone just because they don't have an equally awesome load-out of gear. To each their own. SEALS and Delta Force have a lot of leeway in selecting their gear. Rangers have rather less. I side with those who think this guy is exaggerating his service to impress people. I never criticize people because they haven't spent enough money or bought the coolest brand. If your budget only runs to a knockoff SPEAR ELCS, well, brother, wear it with good fortune. I criticize the crossdraw for all the reasons cited above, which make it an objectively inferior design, and that in turn means that the only reason to buy one is failure to do the research. I believe it works for you, but a decent player can find ways to make do with all sorts of crappy gear. That's no reason not to steer other new players in the direction of something better. Taking ASGI prices as a baseline, the cheapest crossdraw vest is $40. The cheapest one in stock runs $51. You can also get a basic Condor chest rig for $30, or a Condor MOLLE chest rig with integrated M4 mag pouches for $60. It's simply irresponsible to suggest that crossdraw is a wise choice at any price point.
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Grizzly
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Post by Grizzly on Nov 6, 2010 20:18:39 GMT -5
This is kind of off-topic, but it always surprises me that I don't see more ALICE gear out there. It's what I use and couldn't be happier with it. You can move the pouches around your waist to wherever you want them, and it grants you much better mobility than a vest. Sometimes I'll forget that I'm strapped to 12 lbs. of gear. It's cheaper than dirt for all of those n00bs out there, and it just has a universal look. to it, so you can keep it whether you want to do anything from Vietnam (like me) to modern spec ops or paramilitaries.
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Post by Great Troub of Troubistan on Nov 6, 2010 20:32:03 GMT -5
Its because ALICE gear is inferior to its MOLLE counterparts. The pouches and equipment is just better made. One could run a molle belt kit with much more efficiency than an ALICE belt kit.
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Post by Chaos on Nov 6, 2010 22:06:52 GMT -5
But if you're choosing between ALICE and a Crossdraw, I would buy ALICE.
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Post by Great Troub of Troubistan on Nov 7, 2010 13:45:52 GMT -5
But if you're choosing between ALICE and a Crossdraw, I would buy ALICE. A thousand times over. I would go with ALICE before a Crossdraw any day of the week.
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Post by GrinchBiscuit on Nov 7, 2010 15:30:39 GMT -5
It should be noted that MOLLE H-Harness platforms made ALICE more or less irrelevant, as it's a much more rigid platform than a 2" belt with a pair of clips. That's not to say ALICE is shitty, as it's a great alternative to uggo crossdraws, much more comfortable, and much cheaper to boot.
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Post by gunnysgt on Nov 8, 2010 20:17:52 GMT -5
I started with a crossdraw, I enjoyed it, but the pistol pouch was a waste of room until I got my M9, I use ALICE for outdoor and will occasionally use my cross-draw for CQB, as you may possibly have to sling your primary and pull out your pistol for a close quarters shot. In outdoor games, I really see no need for a pistol as you will never really get close enough to use it, and if you do, most of everyone will be using automatic, which makes a pistol pretty much obsolete, in which case I'd just use semi for closer shots.
I once saw some pictures of a guys MOLLE vest with ALICE M16 pouches on it instead of MOLLE pouches. If I find it again, I'll post the link. I personally prefer ALICE over MOLLE because I don't really like a bunch of stuff sticking out on my chest because I lie down and crawl a lot, it was harder for me to do that until I got an ALICE rig, where I have my ammo pouches at my side, but in CQB if I need a quick mag change, I'll always depend on my crossdraw.
I believe there are downsides to MOLLE, ALICE, and crossdraws. There are pros and cons for everything. MOLLE and ALICE are highly customizable, while crossdraws are not. Another reason I like crossdraws is they're inexpensive, and since I have an ALICE rig for outdoors, I see no reason to MOLLE because I will probably have it in the same configuration as a crossdraw in CQB. Crossdraws are also pretty breathable. A con for ALICE is it's harder to draw magazines from the pouches because airsoft magazines are shorter than real magazines, but I fixed that by putting some paper towel in the bottom of the pouches. I prefer ALICE over MOLLE in my opinion. I work more effectively with an equipment belt and pouches at my sides than I do with a vest and pouches in the front. I'd take a crossdraw over anything in CQB because you have a pistol holster which can be useful if you have one, and magazine pouches at your chest, I don't lie down in CQB so I work effectively with it, plus it's cheaper than a MOLLE rig. ALICE is also very cheap and pretty damn easy to acquire, where I've seen MOLLE vests go from $50-$300 dollars. My ALICE rig of belt, suspenders, magazine pouches, and canteen cover cost me about 30 bucks.
Off topic here a bit but Vampyre, in your first post, its an M1 Garand, not an M1A1 Garand. It also annoys the HELL out of me when people call magazines clips. When I hear some little kid call a magazine a clip, it makes me want to buttstroke him with my rifle haha.
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