Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 21:06:54 GMT -5
He already said he was getting the M14 so I am not suggesting him to get it. It was just a suggestion made to deaf ears now that the thread has served its purpose to its creator. This is now just an arguement between me, you, and your friend now.
I was aware of his budget. He decided to get the M14 instead and after he switched over to that thread the arguement started and I don't even think he is following it.
And the Upgrade I have is cheap and effective. The higher FPS is useful because it can cut through brush better so you can hit people behind bushes in woodland areas. The metal parts havn't been chewed up so even ith they aren't the best model they are good enough.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 20, 2010 21:12:19 GMT -5
But people in the future use the search button. This might come up, and the fact that you posted crappy advice might ruin some peoples rifles in the future. This thread will be read by many to come. Quite frankly I am worried about people taking your advice.
I can easily cut through brush with .36s, a heavier weight bb, without losing much to any range. Problem solved.
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Post by triggs on Jul 20, 2010 21:26:39 GMT -5
Aluminum in itself is a high strength, low weight metal. However, the aluminum used in cheap trigger assemblies, specifically the UTG "upgrades" are not even remotely close to a decent grade of aluminum alloy. They simply wear down much faster than quality metals. Price and weight have nothing to do with it. There are no shortcuts to a solid performing, long lasting rifle.
Cheap parts are cheap parts no matter how long they have been on the market. As a matter of fact the UTG "Upgrade" kits are not out there to "upgrade" existing current generation marketed rifles. They are "upgrade kits" for the older models to make them perform similar to the current ones being sold in-store. Basically if you upgrade a UTG L96 made 2 years ago with one of their kits, it ideally performs like the one you can buy brand new in the store this year.
I never said your rifle did not work. I did however say, your experience is extremely limited, your knowledge as limited, your advice reflects that. I have no need to twist your words, your level of experience does that. Given your level of experience it's important that whomever reads this realizes that while you may have had good results with your upgrades, they are untested, you're new and can not voice a unbiased opinion based in long term testing and experience.
As fuzzy and I keep pointing out. Making suggestions without reading, understanding the situation is important. But it's also important that you read, understand, and have proper experience to even consider recommending anything.
Fuzzy has this covered, he has personal, long term experience with the L96's. I have owned everything from the UTG L96 to the TOP M60's and I can tell you right now the UTG L96 is a fun rifle to play with. I did all the basic DIY mods to it, and while they worked, the quality of the rifle was pure trash, and it's possible replacements were expensive, but they were quality. On the other hand it was pointless to even consider UTG "upgrade" parts. Why? Because the parts that just broke were UTG, why replace UTG with more UTG. Metal is metal yes, but the quality of the metal varies greatly in comparison. UTG does not have the reputation or the actual quality behind their "upgrades."
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 21:34:14 GMT -5
But could'nt you increase the spring strength and get higher FPS and even more range with your PDI hop-up and TBB. Or, did you not get a zero trigger to handle it. And you know I have never used .28g and higher bbs in my rifle before. But that should'nt effect how much penetration it gets because a .2 and a .36 carry the same 1.48j of kinetic energy. But for me I have 2.6j of kinetic energy to cut through brush. The energy of the round doesn't change with different wheight. Any if my sears to break at my rifles age it would be a result of the years of use not the spring. And the stock trigger boxes in the l96 type aps2 are strong and many DIY upgraders like me use them stock even with heavier springs. It upgrades components in the cylinder only and the Spring guide comes with a bearings too. Aluminum in itself is a high strength, low weight metal. However, the aluminum used in cheap trigger assemblies, specifically the UTG "upgrades" are not even remotely close to a decent grade of aluminum alloy. They simply wear down much faster than quality metals. Price and weight have nothing to do with it. There are no shortcuts to a solid performing, long lasting rifle. Cheap parts are cheap parts no matter how long they have been on the market. As a matter of fact the UTG "Upgrade" kits are not out there to "upgrade" existing current generation marketed rifles. They are "upgrade kits" for the older models to make them perform similar to the current ones being sold in-store. Basically if you upgrade a UTG L96 made 2 years ago with one of their kits, it ideally performs like the one you can buy brand new in the store this year. We're not talking about the same upgrade. I am talking about the upgrade kit for thier current gen. L96. It replaces the stock cylinder internals and replaces them with slightly stronger parts and a slightly stronger spring. I makes the L96 shoot around 530fps
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 20, 2010 21:39:53 GMT -5
Heavier weight bbs can push through the brush more easily. The lighter bbs hit a twig and just bounce off and are unable to keep a steady level flight path. I have tested this, and while I do not have the physics behind it, it works.
Also, what the hell are you talking about. If you stick in a 1000000 fps spring in a rifle no doubt it will wear down faster than a spring that puts you at 500 fps. Please, use some common sense.
Dude, you have no clue whatsoever. A clone offers many things. Its a great upgrade base. While the stock parts are shit, they can be upgraded to perform well. A maruzen with the same upgrades as the utg will perform the same! You just have to be willing to get the clone there, not to mention, willing to buy some decent upgrades.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 21:46:18 GMT -5
The spring only offers a 60fps increase it isn't a very huge upgrade and it includes bearings in the spring guide to alleviate binding. The upgrade is not very extensive and shouldn't put a lot more stress on the internals it is just a little boost on performance. Thats why I didn't get a zero trigger.
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Post by triggs on Jul 20, 2010 21:49:12 GMT -5
A .2g BB with 2.6J of KE has very little mass, thus it looses most of it's energy traveling attempting to maintain momentum. A .36g BB with 2.6J of KE has much more mass behind it, thus it looses less energy maintaining it's momentum compared to a .2g BB.
Newton's law of physics applies directly. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. Friction however, caused by the BB moving through the air decreases the motion, thus the speed, thus the range. Hitting heavier objects such as trees and leaves has an even greater effect. This changes scientifically with a heavier BB due to the increased mass, thus longer stored momentum, thus longer stored energy, thus longer range.
The energy transferred to the round does not change. But the momentum stored in the projectile changes scientifically. There is a point however, where there is a loss of momentum due to an overwhelming amount of weight.
Good logic about the sears.....years of use wouldn't break anything, but there has to be a force behind it. A.k.a. the spring things don't just wear out doing nothing. And they are not near as strong as you would like to think. It's like US Customs testing airsoft GBB rifles and saying they can shoot a real bullet. Sure they can do it, but within a few rounds it'll blow up in the operator's face.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 20, 2010 21:50:27 GMT -5
Obviously, you have no clue about your rifle. The stock spring in the UTG is complete crap. After some use, the spring wears down to around 400 with .2s. This is actually a good thing, as the sears will be given less stress. By sticking in that 550 fps spring, you are putting wayyyy more stress on the sears. If you understood your rifle, you would know that the fps decreases over time with the crappy spring.
Want some proof? Ok, if the spring stayed up around 500 fps out of the box. The sears would break after some use. Its been awhile that I have had my rifle...Sears are fine....hmmm, but did I not just read that awhile back a guy with a maruzen broke his sears because he put in a 500 fps spring. While it lasted awhile, it did not hold up for a long period of time.
I have had my rifle for a long time. Still functioning. Not much wear on the sears. I wonder how thats possible??
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Post by triggs on Jul 20, 2010 21:58:24 GMT -5
It's worth noting here that while Maruzen, Tokyo Marui, and other Japanese companies are top quality there is a method behind this.
Japanese laws restrict airsofter to 1J< otherwise it is considered a legal firearm (just like a real steel). To avoid this Japanese companies stay below the 1 Joule limit. However, as noted, physics dictates a severe decrease in performance. Thus to answer this issue the hopup and barrel are precision made to cancel out the effects of low FPS.
The flip side is, the parts such as the sears are made to lower tolerances, Japanese companies do not focus on export markets, but rather, the internal Japanese market. Thus the parts are made to withstand the 1J limit, since no one will upgrade otherwise they face legal issues.
Now you get crazy Americans pushing 2.5J on a part designed for 1J< and guess what happens?
Chinese manufactures are outside of these laws. However, companies such as WELL/Warrior 1 (OEM for UTG L96's) use cheap plastics and metals in order to save production costs. Pop in a high FPS spring for the power hungry Americans and you have an instant best seller in America. However, it comes at a cost, the cut corners in manufacturing lead to much earlier failures in the components.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 22:02:31 GMT -5
Well I get what you mean. But still the Upgrade doesn't do much. The sears in my rifle are holding up fine and the kit is desogned for the new l96's without reinforcement of the sears or a new trigger box. My rifle should hold up fine and we will just have to wait and see how long my sears will last. I'm geussing it will at least last another year or two and when it does I will have to say I told you so. But my gun is being put into reserve after this season so we may never find out, whether or not I'm breaking my gun.
And even with the poor quality control my rifles works good. It was even quite the lemon early on and it was either get the power upgrade or shelf my rifle. Even though the clones are built with less quality they are geared to higher tolerances at the 460fps these rifles put out stock. I am not saying they are great but they are able to handle the l96 upgrade kit in stock form.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 20, 2010 22:03:36 GMT -5
First of all, how old are you? "I told you so" is alittle immature.
Also, apparently you did not read anything I said.
And that rifle could last thirty years if you only shot it once every five years. So, basically you could not use that rifle the rest of the season, come back next year, and say it works.
I do not buy it now and I will not later.
And to save you some time. You are breaking your rifle, in numerous spots.
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Post by Livonia on Jul 20, 2010 22:10:10 GMT -5
Aaron96, disregard Vampyre's argument. Triggs and Fuzzy know what is best.
The G&G M14's are impressive, to be honest I wouldn't even reccomend upgrades until you use it a little bit. You will still be out ranging many others on the field with it stock. You will have the ability to use it as an assault rifle for when that time comes too.
Vamp, do you ever take shots from your own rifle using different weight BB's? Heavier BB's always hurt more. You need to have a couple more years under your belt before you start arguing with people who know what they are talking about. Triggs already went point by point correcting your wrongs, and somehow, there are already many others I could cover. This thread is to help someone out through discussion and facts for whats best for Aaron96, not for everyone to hear your points.
Why do I even bother helping people anymore, not many care to learn the right way. New gen airsofters FTL. Clone Sniper rifles started it all my friends.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 22:13:44 GMT -5
First of all, how old are you? "I told you so" is alittle immature. Also, apparently you did not read anything I said. And that rifle could last thirty years if you only shot it once every five years. So, basically you could not use that rifle the rest of the season, come back next year, and say it works. I do not buy it now and I will not later. And to save you some time. You are breaking your rifle, in numerous spots. Well I'm definitely going to use the rifle for the rest of the season. I am going to use the shit out of it and I just need it to work for this season and it's getting shelved and replaced with a gas system. And I will just have to inspect my parts to see what I am breaking. I am 17 and celebrating my 18th birthday on the 29th. And I apologize if you think I am not listening I'm just typing slow and spell-checking. My advice to give is that if you one a clone L96 and you are saving up to get a high-end rifle but it will be a while before you get it and the spring is dead. You should get the upgrade kit and push out a little more from your rifle before you shelf it. That is what I am doing and it is working out for me. My next rifle is not going to be a clone and I will never buy a clone again. My Well MB05 has been one headache after another and I'm glad it is going to be shelved after this season.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 20, 2010 22:16:53 GMT -5
Not sure what typing slow has to do with this. You just clearly are not reading anyone's posts.
Even Livonia, a guy I greatly admire when it comes to knowledge of the game, has put in his word. Even if you do not listen to me, please listen to him.
And age has nothing to do with maturity. And obviously after your posts, you are clearly still growing up and have a great deal of maturing to go through.
You have got to be shitting me??? If its been a headache for you why on earth would you suggest someone would do the same thing to their rifle as you did to yours?
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 22:24:27 GMT -5
Not sure what typing slow has to do with this. You just clearly are not reading anyone's posts. Even Livonia, a guy I greatly admire when it comes to knowledge of the game, has put in his word. Even if you do not listen to me, please listen to him. And age has nothing to do with maturity. And obviously after your posts, you are clearly still growing up and have a great deal of maturing to go through. Well typing slow and having people post new post while I'm typing is what I'm talking about. Personally, if I want to upgrade a marui or maruzen spring rifle I will follow all the advice I can take, but this isn't about those guns it is about clone guns and the upgrades you can put into a clone gun to make it decent without breaking the bank. I'm not saying any of my upgrades are better I just saying they are cost effective.
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