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Post by Munin on Jul 22, 2008 12:15:41 GMT -5
You know, I hate to reply to stuff like because its always a long ass post that looks like I'm trying to make up some excuse or lie but the fact is you people twist the crap out of your posts or leave out MAJOR details that make all the difference in the world as to how people will take your comments. Munin, not cool man. I don't find this funny at all. Make sure if your going to post some BS like this, you put up all the facts. OK, kdogg, let's look at the facts, shall we? Let's back up a step. Let's start by clarifying that what I actually ordered was a single CA spur gear, which your website listed as available and in-stock. I then got a notice from you that that item was not available (Empire Airsoft had stopped selling individual CA gears), and that as a replacement you would offer an ECHO1 gearset at no additional charge. At this point, I was like, "OK, that's cool. No worries." So when you accuse me of ordering a "cheap china made" gearset, you too are distorting the facts. Incorrect. Most parts sales are unwarrantied. This is a far cry from "final." The defect in the gear was CLEARLY a casting defect. I include a picture for reference: The gear had never been installed or used, and was new out of the bag. I received a defective product. There's a difference between, "Hey, I used this part and it broke," and "Hey, the stuff you sold me was broken before I got it." As for the return policy, if such sales were were final, perhaps you could explain this message I got from you, dated August 28, 200 7? "Please dont use the other gears. Echo 1 will most likely request I send them back for examination in order to refund or replace me."Fair enough, you tried to replace it, as you explain here: At some level, this is not my problem. I have paid for merchandise. I have received defective merchandise and returned it to you at my own expense. So now Empire Airsoft has both my merchandise and my money, and I have bupkus. Stop. You are not "trying to do me a favor." You are trying to avoid the responsibility of actually delivering the merchandise your shop advertized. I paid money. I got nothing. As for sending me a replacement, shall we go over that comedy of errors? Yes, you were off MiA for a while, and that's fine. But when you finally did come back, I got nothing but a shifting story of "I sent the gear" to "Young sent the gear," to "I'll send you the gear right away." I received assurances from you, both via PM and when I called you in person that it would be taken care of promtly. When I finally did receive the gear, it was postmarked two full months after the date when you assured me you had already sent it. That means you were lying, because postmarking happens when something is received by the post office. No "lost in the mail" excuses, just you lying to a customer. And when I finally did receive the replacement? I seriously, honestly thought you were fucking with me, because you sent me back the IDENTICAL defective gear. That's right, the gear I had returned to you because it was missing half a tooth. So after months of lies and evasion and excuses, I still do not have the merchandise I ordered. Shall we list the litany of assurances? Oct 18, 2007: "I'll get these out asap. Sorry for the delay. Having some issues with ECHO 1 and replacement parts. They never have anything."Nov 13, 2007: "Let me check into this, I thought yong sent you some already. I'd not heard anything so I thought you had long gotten them."Dec 8th, 2007: "Sorry it's taken me so long to get back with you. My boss has been in Vegas at his other house and I had to wait for him to return to figure out whats going on.
I guess I'm sending you some more gears because he swears up and down they went back out in the SAME box you sent them to us in, the same way you sent them to us, so there wouldn't be a tracking number."That one is particularly good, because the box I sent it in was one of those little USPS sticky-boxes that you basically have to destroy to open. This was when I started to suspect I was getting the run-around. Dec 15th, 2007: "Ok I got some of the gears out of my person stock. All new...
Gimme address."Jan 24th, 2008: "I'll ask Yong about this yet again. He was given the package on the 7th when we re-opened from the hoilday vacation we took.
The tracking number was: 9101 8052 1368 3141 3123 12"This one I particularly like because of the clearly bogus tracking number. That sequence is neither USPS, UPS, FedEx, DHL, or any other carrier. It showns every appearance of being a made-up number concocted out of whole cloth. Ergo, a lie. And when I called you on it, I get this: Jan 29th, 2008: "I will have a tracking number for you when my girlfriend returns."Which I took as pretty much an admission that you had lied in the previous message and STILL hadn't sent the merchandise (which keep in mind, has been paid for since August of last year). Jan 30th, 2008: "So basically, I had to pay out of my own pocket get these parts to you and pay the shipping on this to you so I don't want any shit from you hehe I have nothing else to say =P
ECHO 1 NEVER sent me the right damn parts so I took some new gears out of my own spar parts kits, then my boss wouldn't ship another set because he insists he sent them once already which I'm not doubting him but you said you never got them so whatever, no big deal.
Anyway he wouldn't pay to re-ship them so I said fuck it and told him I would do it myself.
Your welcome, sorry its taken so long."This is where the martyrdom complex really starts. Nevermind that Empire Airsoft has received my money and I still have nothing to show for it. It's all about how you're doing me this HUGE favor. Listen, man, when the waitress at Chili's brings you the food you actually ordered, she's not doing you a huge favor. She's doing her fucking job. Time goes by. As previously mentioned, I FINALLY receive a replacement gear - the identical gear I had returned to you, still with the missing half-tooth casting defect. I half thought you were trying to be funny, at which point I complained and got this gem: Feb 27th, 2008: "I use the MIA forums maybe twice a month. I don't have time to ship packages, build guns, talk to customers AND sit on forums."OK, but why do I have a response from you pretty much every few weeks? Where is this "six month break" from the forums you took? We had what I would consider relatively regular timely contact throughout this time. I understand that you're busy, and NOWHERE did I demand instantaneous response from you. And for the record, I actually did call teh store at this junctutre (again) and talked to you personally (again) and was told that you'd respolve the issue immediately (again). My favorite was how the note ended with this: "You owe me a beer some day."No. You owe me the item that I paid for. Nothing more, nothing less. And finally, June 24th, 2008: "I completely FORGOT all about this. I have only been here like two or three times in the past few months.
Should be around more regular now though but yeah, gimme your addy and I'll mail you one in the morning. I gotta mail some shit anyway."And I have again seen NOTHING since. Nothing. No. Read your own policy more carefully. There's a difference between "no warranty" and "failure to deliver goods as contracted." You are NOT doing me a favor. You are fulfilling (or rather failing to fulfill) a contractual obligation between buyer and seller. I'm sick of seeing you lash out at buyers who've had similar experiences, both with you personally and with Empire Airsoft. You have a proven track record of outright lying to people doing business with you. I understand that there are a ton of ECHO1 kiddies out there who will kiss your ass and tell you you're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I am not one of them. My experience with Empire Airsoft (and with you) has been dissatisfactory. I held my tongue for a long time because I was trying to give you ample opportunity to fix the problem. You have utterly and repeatedly failed to do so. I didn't make a fuss because honestly, it was a single fucking spur gear and who the hell cares? But this is not about a trivial item, it's about your pattern of deception, dissemblance, and poor customer service. At any point, you could have made a satisfied customer out of me by simply doing what you SAID you were going to do. And I probably would have been like, "that kdogg, he was really helpful when I ordered through Empire." But instead you've been your own worst PR. Congratulations.
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Post by Яoman on Jul 22, 2008 12:46:40 GMT -5
Nope K, I personal gave AEGs a nice "Fuck You" went where my heart is, sniping, a picked up a nice bolt-action Secks known as the Maruzen APS-2 SV.
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Post by Munin on Jul 22, 2008 14:57:08 GMT -5
kdogg, I'm going to say this again, because you don't seem to understand. there is a difference between "no warranty" and "failure to deliver." You have failed to deliver me the part that I have paid for.
Perhaps an analogy would be illustrative: If I ordered a Systema spring and you sent me a Guarder piston, would you claim that I was shit out of luck because internal parts are not warrantied? Or would you rectify the mistake and send me the item I actually paid for? Would it make a difference if the item I paid for was of lesser value than the item I received? If I ordered a Systema spring and you mistakenly sent me a Systema PTW, could I then say, "All sales are final" and keep the PTW? Might that not make you angry?
I ordered a CA spur gear. I consented to the substitution of an ECHO1 gear in its place. The implicit assumption made in any purchase is that the merchandise you get conforms to that which is advertised, in this case a gear that has all its freaking teeth.
Had I installed the gear and had it broken on me, you are absolutely correct. I would have had no recourse, as that is clearly my own fault and the warranty would apply. But I did not. The gear was received in that condition from the factory and from the retailer (Empire Airsoft).
Is it your position that Empire Airsoft is somehow allowed to sell defective goods with no recourse? If that is your contention, then you have no grounds to be upset when someone gives you negative feedback or reviews. I paid money and never received the item I ordered in the condition advertised. If your response is essentially, "neener, neener, fooled you!" then don't be surprised if I (or any other customer) lambaste you publicly, because we are perfectly within our rights to do so.
You are not fulfilling the terms of our contractual agreement (i.e. the purchase). You are not "doing me a favor." You are weaseling your way behind a "company policy" that arguably does not even apply to the situation in question, and you're responding with hostility when you're called on it.
That is pretty much the definition of bad customer service.
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Post by kdogg on Jul 22, 2008 16:14:35 GMT -5
Almost EVERY airsoft dealer gives ZERO warranty on internal parts and upgrade components they do NOT install simply because most people buying them have no idea how to install them.
This is policy is made by the manufactures and wholesalers, NOT US.
Anything more then me telling you this is me doing you a favor.
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Post by kdogg on Jul 22, 2008 16:16:34 GMT -5
Opps, somehow my post got messed up. Anyway...
Failure to deliver would imply I never sent you "anything" what so ever. You accepted the ECHO 1 gears and they were mailed and you got them.
Now if it broke or was broken, that completely a whole other matter.
What part of the manufactures and wholesalers tell us NO WARRANTY ON internals can't get you to understand. The fact you do not accept it doesn't change the that is how it is.
As a store we don't owe you anything and we never did. I was trying to be nice.
If you want to slam me personally, go for it but your post slamming Empire Airsoft has no business on this forum.
This is the type of crap I would expect from one of the younger newer players but not someone who has been around as long as you who should know how it this stuff works with gun, parts, warranties.
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Post by Jacko on Jul 22, 2008 19:30:56 GMT -5
Actually, your mis-spelled, grammatically incorrect and overall shitty 'policy' doesn't disclaim anything according to US law. You should probably Wiki that shit but it might go over your head as some of the words are over 2 syllables.
You're fucking right, your store doesn't owe anyone anything and I'm thankful the same is true of your customers. Go suck a dick. I've been watching this whole situation from Munin's perspective and since I know him to be a fairly level-headed, sane individual, I'm apt to believe his opinion that you're a fuckhead toolbag.
Some mod, gimme a warning for this.
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Post by Munin on Jul 22, 2008 19:35:23 GMT -5
Ad hominem attacks have no place on these boards. Jacko, this is your first warning. You fuckhead toolbag.
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Post by Munin on Jul 22, 2008 20:48:05 GMT -5
Though his approach was uncalled for, Jacko is right. I offer you teh following definition of "Merchantability:"
"Every time goods are bought and sold, a sales contract is created: the buyer agrees to pay, and the seller agrees to accept, a certain price in exchange for a certain item or number of items. Sales contracts are frequently oral, unwritten agreements. The purchase of items like a candy bar hardly seems worth the trouble of drafting an agreement spelling out the buyer's expectation that the candy bar will be fresh and edible. Implied warranties protect the buyer whether or not a written sales contract exists.
The policy behind the implied warranty of merchantability is basic: sellers are generally better suited than buyers to determine whether a product will perform properly. Holding the seller liable for a product that is not fit for its ordinary purpose shifts the costs of nonperformance from the buyer to the seller. This motivates the seller to ensure the product's proper performance before placing it on the market. The seller is better able to absorb the costs of a product's nonperformance, usually by spreading the risk to consumers in the form of increased prices.
The policy behind limiting the implied warranty of merchantability to the goods' ordinary use is also straightforward: a seller may not have sufficient expertise or control over a product to ensure that it will perform properly when used for nonstandard purposes."
Furthermore, the United States Uniform Commercial Code states that unless there is a disclaimer to the contrary, the warranty of merchantability applies to all goods sold in open commerce.
"The importance of buying from a "merchant" is that all sales of goods in Michigan by merchants are accompanied by an "implied warranty of merchantability." This is the concept that the goods you are buying will be fit for their ordinary purposes. Since it is an "implied" warranty, the merchant does not have to make any statements or promises to you for this to exist. The implied warranty of merchantability exists on its own. That means that if you buy a refrigerator, it will keep your food cold; a lawnmower will cut grass; a hair dryer will dry your hair. This implied warranty exists along with any other warranties which might come with your product."
In the state of Michigan, in order to be valid, a disclaimer of the warrant of merchantability must comply with the following:
"To be a valid disclaimer, it must be conspicuous, and mention the word "merchantability." Without that wording, in a conspicuous fashion on the document, the sale will still come with an implied warranty."
Nowhere on the Empire Airsoft policy page (which it must be reiterated is very poorly written), does the term "merchantability" appear. Therefore, the contract is implied.
And finally:
"If you rightfully revoke your acceptance of the product, of whatever kind, the merchant must refund your money to you. If they don't they are violating the Michigan Consumer Protection Act. The Act specifically prohibits failing to refund the consumer's money in a transaction that is rightfully canceled or rescinded. If you had returned the item to the seller properly, and they refused to refund your money (or trade-in if you traded a car in on another, for example), you could sue them under this Act..."
I purchased a part. That part did not conform to the "reasonable use" standards accepted for such an item. Therefore, you are faced with a choice: you may either send me a product that does conform with the reasonable use standard (i.e. an intact gear) or you can refund my money.
For the record, another aspect of this whole transaction is getting lost, and that is the long list of lies you've told me. How many times have you claimed to have sent the part? And did you not send me a bogus tracking number when asked for one? You have shown a pattern of dishonesty that is easy for anyone who has read the correspondence I posted to see.
Empire Airsoft's policy does not disclaim the implied warrant of merchantability. The customer service has been lackluster to say the least. This is my review of my experience with Empire Airsoft. Your martyr complex and your railing against it does not change the fact my transaction with Empire Airsoft was not completed to my satisfaction.
If you do not want to send me a replacement gear, you may refund my money immediately.
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Post by Sigman on Jul 23, 2008 0:37:06 GMT -5
As a friend of Steve's I'm going to try and not to take sides here but you people do understand Steve just works for Empire/Young's correct? You are sitting here crapping all over the man when he is stuck in the middle too. Steve has absolutely zero power to do anything to fix this type of problem. He can tell you yes yes yes all day long until the cows come home and at the end of the day Mr. Young makes all the decisions on matters like this. If the companies they buy from tell them they get no warranty, Young isn't going to do anything more then they do for him. Your faulting the wrong person. From an outside prospective it looks as though Steve tried to make it right on a personal level, failed and is now catching a shit storm because of it.
Tell him to call Young and complain to Young. It's Young's business and he makes these types of decisions, let him deal with it.
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Post by Munin on Jul 23, 2008 10:31:56 GMT -5
ECJ, I appreciate and applaud your efforts to defend your friend, but I think you're missing the point. I am not attacking Steve personally when I say I want my merchandise. I have no personal issue with Steve, apart from his proven track record of lying to customers.
My issue is with Empire Airsoft. But Steve, as an employee of Empire Airsoft and as the guy who handles all the ordering, represents the company. When I lodge a complaint with him, I am lodging a complaint with "Steve: employee of Empire Airsoft," not "Steve: J-random dude off the street."
And let me reiterate this again, because it bears mentioning. He's not "doing me a favor" by sending me a new gear. He is fulfilling his legal obligation according to the dictates of the UCC. Failure to do so is against the law. That's the part that you (and he) seem to be missing.
For what it's worth, last time I called the store, I actually asked to talk to Young directly. Steve basically said, "No, man, you don't want to do that. I'll take care of it." I honestly beleive that Steve was trying to cover his own ass and keep from getting in trouble, but whatever.
Either way, as an employee of Empire Airsoft, Steve may not make the rules - but he is in an excellent position to advise his boss when something goes wrong or when it has been brought to his attention that the company's practices are illegal. He's in a position to go to his boss and explain the situation. And he's in a position to send out either a replacement or a refund.
But this is not about Steve. If it were, this whole discussion would be taking place in the Commerce Personal Reviews section. Instead, it is taking place in the Retailer Reviews section, because my problem is with Empire Airsoft.
And for what its worth, the complaint I have filed with the Better Business Bureau is with Empire Airsoft/Young's Army Navy Surplus.
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Post by Canto on Jul 23, 2008 14:18:09 GMT -5
Steve, just send Munin the damned gear or his money back.
You guys should have inspected every part that came in on your order prior to even adding them to your inventory. Granted, "no warranty" on internal parts. But if you would have inspected the parts and saw the defect, you probably could have gotten a replacement sent.
In my eyes as a business owner, that's selling an inferior product and very shady...
Now, I know Young doesn't give you much room to work with in terms of business practices and such. But ask him, for God's sake. Do you know how many complaints I receive about your business? No refunds, all sales are final, rip-off prices, terrible customer service, etc. Stuff has got to change dude... Young is a piss-poor businessman and you know it...
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Post by kdogg on Jul 23, 2008 14:40:17 GMT -5
PLEASE feel free to call Young. 269-382-1900, I'll put you right threw to him. You can tell him how bad the customer service has been trying to deal with me.
What you must have missed was the fact I knew Young would tell you no warranty, sorry we can't do anything. Why do you think I was offering to hook you up out of my own personal parts bin after ECHO 1 failed to come threw, duh...
So I did some checking around on michigan.gov, google and made some calls. I verified this with someone who works in the office where these so called complaints are investigated by the State.
This is applies to Michigan consumer law directly. And I quote:
Generally speaking, consumers are protected in most purchases of goods when the products are sold by merchants and the goods aren't sold "as-is."
Please note the key words here are "and the goods aren't sold as-is".
I checked, with someone from the state and my wording that says "all sales are final" and "We can only provide what warranty the manufactures and importers are willing to provide us." is good enough to be considered an as-is sale in the state of Michigan.
Also if a company in Michigan offers for sale any internal replacement parts for a product that require a skill set to install where any warranty might be void by the manufacture if the end consumer tries to install himself, guess what? We don't have to replace or accept the return of the parts after the sale for any reason as long as the parts are sold as-is. Everyone knows Airsoft internals are a no warranty as-is item. I shouldn't need a policy for common sense.
Also, we are not even a member of the Better Business Bureau that was sort of pointless. Besides the BBB helps business more then consumers. Businesses have to pay a membership fee. Do you really think the BBB is going to piss off the people who line there pockets? Please Google search the BBB or more information on what I'm talking about.
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Post by Munin on Jul 23, 2008 16:02:24 GMT -5
So I did some checking around on michigan.gov, google and made some calls. I verified this with someone who works in the office where these so called complaints are investigated by the State. This is applies to Michigan consumer law directly. And I quote: Generally speaking, consumers are protected in most purchases of goods when the products are sold by merchants and the goods aren't sold "as-is."Please note the key words here are "and the goods aren't sold as-is". I checked, with someone from the state and my wording that says "all sales are final" and "We can only provide what warranty the manufactures and importers are willing to provide us." is good enough to be considered an as-is sale in the state of Michigan." [/i][/quote] That's interesting, because I will quote the relevant part of both the UCC and Michigan Commercial law that states otherwise. From the pertinent section: "Every contract for the sale of goods under Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code includes implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. MCL 440.2314, 440.2315; MSA 19.2314, 19.2315. Because implied warranty disclaimers are generally disfavored by the courts, such disclaimers must be conspicuous in order to be effective against the purchaser. MCL 440.2316; MSA 19.2316. Section 2-316 of the UCC provides, in pertinent part:
(2) Subject to subsection (3), to exclude or modify the implied warranty of merchantability or any part of it the language must mention merchantability and in case of a writing must be conspicuous, and to exclude or modify any implied warranty of fitness the exclusion must be by a writing and conspicuous."There is no mention whatsoever of merchantability made in your company policies. There is no mention of "as is" in your company policies. There is no mention of "no warranty" in your company policies. In fact, your website implies that you do provide warranties when it states: "We can only provide what warranty the manufactures and importers are willing to provide us."And in any case, the entire section does not fit the legal description for conspicuousness. I did do a Google search, and spent a fair amount of time browsing the BBB's web page. Interesting stuff. And they do handle claims whether you're a member or not. Young's Army Navy Surplus was already listed in their database. But more than anything else, the registration of a complaint with the BBB is a public notice. It might help dissuade someone else from making the mistake of doing business with a disreputable dealer.
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Post by kdogg on Jul 23, 2008 16:53:57 GMT -5
Steve, just send Munin the damned gear or his money back. You guys should have inspected every part that came in on your order prior to even adding them to your inventory. Granted, "no warranty" on internal parts. But if you would have inspected the parts and saw the defect, you probably could have gotten a replacement sent. In my eyes as a business owner, that's selling an inferior product and very shady... Now, I know Young doesn't give you much room to work with in terms of business practices and such. But ask him, for God's sake. Do you know how many complaints I receive about your business? No refunds, all sales are final, rip-off prices, terrible customer service, etc. Stuff has got to change dude... Young is a piss-poor businessman and you know it... Please look at Munins picture he posted. You know that huge 6 time bigger then an actual AEG photo above. The one that had to be blown up 6 time bigger then actual size so people could even see the damage.. Would you really expect someone to see that in a sealed package? If we open packages guess what? You sold me used stuff, you suck, blah blah blah. Oh yea, I've had that happen too. No matter what we do a customer will find something to complain about. I did look, looked fine so I shipped it. I can't really say one way or the other if it went out that way or if it happened after the fact.
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Post by kdogg on Jul 23, 2008 17:18:14 GMT -5
Anyway please call Yong if you have anymore questions concerning this. Yong handles all the returns, credits, exchanges, etc, not me.
269-382-1900
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