amul
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Posts: 10
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Post by amul on Jul 7, 2008 6:26:26 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
I've got a really bad experience with this shop.
I ordered some mags for Systema PTW 3month ago, they got some shortage and ask me to wait.. two months later (enough wait i bought on another shop) i ask them to refund my money.
For the moment they still own me about 435$, I send them more than 30mails and even talk with the boss on the phone. Each time its the same the guys tells me he refund shortly but NOTHING.
It seems to me they are trying to stole my money, i try to find a solution with my bank
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Post by Crazyman™ on Jul 7, 2008 6:41:14 GMT -5
I'm going to assume that there's a language barrier and not that you're a piss poor citizen. So, I'll offer this much, I know "Kdogg" (Steve) at Empire is supposed to be a helpful and cool guy, I'd try and talk to him since the owner is somewhat unfriendly with customers. It might get your refund sooner, and if not, do a charge back with the credit card company and or contact the Better Business Bureau to light a fire under their asses. Unfortunately, I've been hearing more stories like this from Empire.
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amul
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Post by amul on Jul 7, 2008 10:12:48 GMT -5
I'm french so i can assume that there is a language barrier; But it's been a month i ask him (every weeks) to refund and i think he understand me very well as he ask me for my bank informations when i first ask him.
I already talked to Steve by mail but he tells me that Yong (his manager) is in charge and he cant do anything, maybe if you know him you can help to unlock this..
Thanks anyway for your reply
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Post by kdogg on Jul 7, 2008 12:56:33 GMT -5
Boy I don't even know if I should justify this with a response.
You wanna know WHY you keep hearing stuff like this? Because customer are not capable of reading.
When any customer places any order with Empire Airsoft, they MUST check a box that says they have read and agree with our company policies. If they don't check the box, they can NOT complete and submit there order.
We even provide a link to our company policies page where you have to check this box so no one can say they couldn't find it.
That being said, the VERY top thing in our policy page says to READ THE NEWS section before ordering for information about back orders, pre-orders, shortages etc. There is a huge thread in our news section ALL about the world wide Systema PTW shortage.
This has effected ALL dealers, American, European and Asian and has been going on since about the beginning of the year.
Not only that there is a notice smack dab in the middle of our damn page that basically says the same thing, telling customer clearly to CALL before ordering if they are in a hurry.
How is it my fault people can't read?
Do you know how much of a pain in the ass a refund is for an international order? It's not like I can just refund your Paypal or refund your credit card. When you send us a bank wire transfer our bank charges us like $30~35 dollars for the incoming wire transfer. Then if we send you one back, we pay a fee for that too.
Had you actually read the policy, we wouldn't be having this issues.
We can NOT control Systema of Japan or Systema USA on there release dates. Everyone who is not living under a rock knows damn well whats going on with this shortage.
Atleast some people get it... From the Systema PTW User Forums:
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amul
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Post by amul on Jul 7, 2008 13:39:05 GMT -5
kdogg, Your reply is an excellent proof of what piss me off with your shop.. Explain : I'm not talking of the pw shortage. I just want my money back, i want a refund, is there is something you do not understand with this sentence ? I ask you for a month now, and each time you tell me something else. As you like quoting, i'm quoting too : - Systema PTW User Forums post where you said you can refund order beacause of too much shortage : www.systema-ptw.com/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2515- airsoftforum thread where a guy got the same problem i have actually (he wait 5month to get his money back) www.airsoftforum.com/board/index.php?showtopic=60033Thats absolutely NOT about your shortage, its about how much time you need to do a wire transfert.. My order number is 983, check your emails and find a solution NOW thanks.
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Post by kdogg on Jul 7, 2008 14:46:25 GMT -5
I have nothing else to say... Christ... Dude how about you READ the stuff your referencing before making posts.
That thread you linked from Airsoft Forum, HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Empire Airsoft . That guy has never done ANY business with Empire Airsoft in any way shape or form.
That was a private deal between myself that that gentlemen. If you take the time to actually READ it, you will see he did NOT buy anything from Empire Airsoft. Hell, he didn't even buy anything from me. I'm the one who bought something from him and AFTER I bought it, he altered the agreement he made with me.
The only reason he even put Empire Airsoft IN the thread was because I *WORK* for Empire Airsoft and he was pissed off at me so he though it would grab more attention to slam our shop even though he did no business with the shop.
And why am I explaining myself to you anyway.
Why don't you try slamming me on the PTW forum you so like to quote?
Oh I know why, because the people there will say things like:
Quote from Magz, (one of the customers who got stuck waiting and then got a defective product)
Systema...shooting themselves in the foot at every turn!
I really feel bad for good guys like kdogg that are being crippled on the retail side by a manufacturer that just doesnt get it...
Anyway... You know only 4 people asked for refunds out of over 70 orders. Everyone else was very understanding to this issue and knew it was out of our control.
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amul
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by amul on Jul 7, 2008 14:59:39 GMT -5
For the airsoftforum thread i read that it has nothing to do with Empire Airsoft but with you directly.. for me its the same , just an example on how much you didnt care about peoples.
You said that only 4 people asked for a refund, ok and what ?.. I really dont care of this, i just want my money back did you understand ?? I'm not flaming you, all i said is legit.
Please stop talking for nothing (after more than 30mails, post on forums and phone calls i'm tired of reading such things) and tell me you send me back my money (and do it). I'll post an update here (and everywhere i wrote feedback on your shop) when this story will be an end.
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Post by kdogg on Jul 7, 2008 15:39:51 GMT -5
I'm trying very hard here to remain civil about this but you just don't seem to get it.
You say its just an example on how much I don't care about people. What part of I do NOT control refunds for Empire Airsoft do you NOT seem to be getting?
I can only do what my boss allows and he controls refunds.
I've advised him and he was going out of his way to issue you a refund and looking for a way to do it without you having to pay any fee's but if you know what, forget it. We will stick to company policy on this. All international sales are final. Your order will ship today.
Oh and the refund thread you linked, that was obviously no longer valid as of June 28th, 2008 when I posted this:
kdogg
Posted: June 28 2008 at 14:04
Looks like the magazine issues are finally working themselves out.
We just got out hands on a good allotment too. Whoo hooo.. About time.
We had not gotten them in-stock yet but we had confirmed they were in fact on the way. They are now in our warehouse. In fact, most items are in-stock now.
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Post by kdogg on Jul 7, 2008 15:50:28 GMT -5
You know on a side note, and I'd like to say this for anyone reading. This applies to ALL the airsoft business, or any business for that matter.
Anyone who runs a business worth a damn, any business that does a lot of business will know this.
You simply can't keep all the customers happy all the time. It's impossible. You are always going to have customers who for whatever reason want to blame the business in question.
They are going to bitch and moan until you do what they want and even when you do, they will still slam your business.
If you start making exceptions for one customer, you gotta do it for the next customer and when you don't, they bitch and moan even louder.
Every single airsoft business I know has dozens of complaint thread about how bad there service is or how they ripped someone off and the fact of the matter is 99% its simply not the case.
We have shipped a couple thousand orders since our newest webpage went up and I can count on one hand how many complaints we have had.
Personally I'm very happy with our ratio of satisfied customers to unhappy ones.
Again, you simply can't keep all the customers happy all the time. Fact of business.
There is a reason we are one of the most recommend Systema PTW dealers on the PTW User Forum, it's because I do care about my customers and I try to take care of them. How many other PTW dealers do you see on the forum dedicating the time I do to try to get things fixed for people?
Not too many, if any at all.
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Post by bigc on Jul 7, 2008 17:03:59 GMT -5
Amul, Systema is a B!@#$ to deal with and Kdogg is right about it being Systema's issue and not Empires. I have dealt with Empire over and over again and had no issues with Kdogg and although Young is a pain to deal with because he is old and cranky and has a bit of a problem with the language barrier he has taken care of me with issues before.
I doubt there were 30 emails about this issue so stop right there.
And I do understand that you can't take care of every customer, there are just to many personalities that don't match. I think airsoft might be amplified due to the fact that there are more young people doing the transactions who don't know how the real world always works.
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Seven
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He thinks it's a Schwinn!
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Post by Seven on Jul 7, 2008 17:27:15 GMT -5
Amul, Systema is a B!@#$ to deal with and Kdogg is right about it being Systema's issue and not Empires. I have dealt with Empire over and over again and had no issues with Kdogg and although Young is a pain to deal with because he is old and cranky and has a bit of a problem with the language barrier he has taken care of me with issues before. I doubt there were 30 emails about this issue so stop right there. And I do understand that you can't take care of every customer, there are just to many personalities that don't match. I think airsoft might be amplified due to the fact that there are more young people doing the transactions who don't know how the real world always works. True, but the customer has asked for a refund on a product that wasn't received. If a refund is not issued for product's not received, they are breaking the law, regardless if its someone else's problem i.e. Systema. (I bet Empire hasn't paid for the product's yet either whereas our airsofter has.) The receipt of payment is a legal contract that the person or person's who own the business agree to trade goods or services for a declare cash value. In this instance I would have to agree with Mr. French here, I would just issue the refund in full or maybe offer a partial refund for the inconvenience. It's better to have gained some money rather than none. Also, if there is such a great shortage maybe the selling of merchandise in which there is no expected due date should be suspended. This doesn't sound like the first time, from reading kdogg's quotes of "I wish customer's would read the policies page..." implying more than one. Just my 2 cents...
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Post by kdogg on Jul 7, 2008 18:32:47 GMT -5
Seven your the perfect example of what bigc was just commenting about. You have no idea how the real world works.
It's only illegal if we don't give him what he paid for or his money money back. Your statement implies that we have taken this customers money with no intention of either, A. sending him the product orders or B. giving him a refund.
I'm highly offended by this. This is exactly the reason why I don't come to any more of the local games and why I no longer help people with technical questions.
Also we only have ONE policies page. Policies meaning we have more then one policy. Not more then one page of policies. All of our policies are common sense policies. No fancy wording, everything is direct and to the point.
Had this been an American customer, easy, push a couple buttons, boom refund issues. Not so easy for international orders which is exactly why we have the policy, ALL INTERNATIONAL ORDERS ARE FINAL!!!
Oh and yeah I offered to give a refund less the wire fee's. Yong was trying to find a new bank to switch our international banking to though so we wouldn't HAVE to charge these fee's though. He wanted to give the customer as close to a full refund as possible.
My willingness to be helpful ran out when someone attempted to smear us. Now we will fallow strict company policy. The company policy that was agreed to by checking the box saying it was agreed to when ordering.
*Post Update*
Almost forgot, I've had a notice of the Systema PTW Shortage on my webpage for months. Anyone who placed an order did so knowing full well the products were not in-stock. Any customer who continued with there order anyway, has no right to complain because they agreed to our policies and knew there would be a waiting period.
Now if a customer just checks the box saying they read the policies and agree without actually doing so, well that's not my fault.
Would you sign papers for a loan without reading them? How about a lease for a car?
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Post by Canto on Jul 7, 2008 21:47:02 GMT -5
To be completely honest, with my personal poor experience with Young's Army Navy Surplus and my own experience as an airsoft business owner; I couldn't agree more with KDogg here... Amul, I don't know you so I won't pretend to know you or placate you. But you really must understand this from the side of the retailer. We have policy pages for a reason. For example (my own company's page) : www.armoryairsoft.com/policiesIt irritates me to no end when I get questions from customers that are clearly spelled out on the page. Right now, we do not ship outside the United States, I get dozens of e-mails asking if we can ship to Europe or Asia. No, we don't and I tell them that our store policy states we do not ship outside the U.S. KDogg is completely correct. As a retailer you cannot please everyone. No matter what you do, someone will always be pissed off and bash or flame you. That's life. As a business owner, you grow some balls or you get out of business. As far as the worldwide PTW shortage stuff, I have no idea. I don't deal in Systema's. But please understand this, if the manufacturer is out, if the main wholesaler is out, if the national distributor is out, you are not gunna get your product. Until all of those people get theirs first...
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amul
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by amul on Jul 8, 2008 0:46:32 GMT -5
I dont discuss here about the shortage, its a thing they cant control ok. But its been a month i ask for a refund, WHY didnt I receive my money back yet
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Post by lazybstered on Jul 8, 2008 7:03:13 GMT -5
Just refund the money and make him pay the wire fee's.
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