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Post by Relarz on May 11, 2008 11:42:41 GMT -5
Well, actionman, if you think you have it rough, think again. FA doesn't let ANYONE below the age of 18 even post on the boards about airsoft, let alone allow them to show up. One of the guys I was talking to last night said they catch a lot of flak from airsofters in the neighboring states, but they hold true to their rules. Call it a blessing that they lowered the age req's here.
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Post by Kurt 19D on May 11, 2008 11:46:26 GMT -5
Yeah, you guys make sense. I agree that my son can just miss out on a game or two. So I guess my question still stands. Would there be some kind of selection process for those that want to go. Even with an 18 year old age limit you can still get some ass tromping through the field and not taking it serious. I am looking forward to trying a milsim game. Like I said I have only been playing for a year but do have some military experience. Being in game were you are waiting in an ambush for a hour sounds exciting, the anticipation is almost better than the firefight. Hope this gets off the ground.
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Post by Relarz on May 11, 2008 12:13:24 GMT -5
Thats what it was like last night. The field that I was at had almost NO tree cover, and there was only a half moon, so it was VERY dark out. Laying low in sandy grass watching silhouettes moving in the dark, their flashlight beams cutting the night. It was BEYOND awesome.
Also, kurt: From what I've seen, you're son seems like he'd be fine at a more milsim game. He seems like a level headed kid, and he keeps his head in the game pretty well.
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Post by Tex on May 11, 2008 12:37:57 GMT -5
Black Eagle on August 16th has now been made to an 18+ game. Talisman and I as well as I'm sure a few others will be putting our creative minds and knowledge of how OPs run together in order to make this a stellar event.
It's a long ways away, but that just leaves room for all the planning that will need to be done. I hope to see all of you old folks out on the battle field. And if anyone has suggestions or small ideas they want to chip in, toss me a PM.
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Post by Chaseman on May 11, 2008 13:03:21 GMT -5
Okay Piping in here, Toot toot! How about this? Some of you older players, not old guy's I have nothing else to say help me put a milsim training program together. Now before you stop reading and start bitchin.... Listen. The future of great airsofting is in the hands of the youth. Now let me explain. They are gonna be playing long after us. So my idea is maybe a two weekend event two Sundays. 1st Sunday is a training day, for what you guys are looking for in milsim games. The older players (Milsim trainers) are assigned troops of younger players. maybe 5-10 in your group. You teach them the difference of what they have been playing paintsoft, and what they are going to be playing Milsim. Hell I'm 45, an old guy and have never played Milsim and would love to learn myself. That whole 1st day is you training your squad and testing them against other squads. the next weekend is the milsim OP. 2nd Sunday you will lead your troops into battle. Maybe after a few of these. Everyone might be able to milsim together and nobody feels left out. Best part you are teaching field owners what to do, Noobs learn the secrets you know and airsoft goes back to airsoft instead of paintsoft. What do you think. We can use our field the trainers are free both weekends. Then I might have an all adult day for payback to the trainers. TRAINERS ONLY DAY!!!! also FREE Fire away
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Post by Canto on May 11, 2008 13:30:29 GMT -5
Personally, I would break types of events into any one of three categories... I mean, the word "Operation" or "Codename" doesn't imply "milsim"...
Recreational Game - An informal hodge-podge of players using standard tactics with a non-formal structured game or games. IE: Capture The Flag, Assault-Defend, VIP, etc. There is no overall theme or scenario to follow.
Example: "FAH Rec. Game"
Event - A structured and formal scenario involving players picking teams and completing more complex objectives in or out of sequence depending on their side. Uniforms and objectives differ upon which team a participant is on.
Example: "Operation: Red Out"
Milsim - A highly structured and very formal scenario involving players completing objectives in sequence with realistic ammunition limitations and a highly regulated chain of command.
Example: "Operation Watchtower: Guadalcanal"
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Post by Zorak on May 11, 2008 13:37:33 GMT -5
Do we need a seperate "what is milsim" thread?
To me the single defining characteristic of milsim events lies in the objectives and scoring. If it's possible to win every battle and lose the event, it's probably milsim. If victory goes to the team that kills the most people, it's probably not. The other things that I've seen discussed - player density, command and control, stealth and ambushes, and mature play - all serve the goal of forcing the leaders of each side to make tough decisions about how to deploy and use their forces.
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Post by SGT. Darcness on May 11, 2008 13:39:04 GMT -5
Personally, I would break types of events into any one of three categories... I mean, the word "Operation" or "Codename" doesn't imply "milsim"... Recreational Game - An informal hodge-podge of players using standard tactics with a non-formal structured game or games. IE: Capture The Flag, Assault-Defend, VIP, etc. There is no overall theme or scenario to follow. Example: "FAH Rec. Game"Event - A structured and formal scenario involving players picking teams and completing more complex objectives in or out of sequence depending on their side. Uniforms and objectives differ upon which team a participant is on. Example: "Operation: Red Out"Milsim - A highly structured and very formal scenario involving players completing objectives in sequence with realistic ammunition limitations and a highly regulated chain of command. Example: "Operation Watchtower: Guadalcanal"Totally agreed Canto. This is exactly what I meant. I'm glad you feel the same way. Also, Chaseman, great idea you have as well. Give the training, then let the trainees try it out for real. Then, give the trainers a chance to play in an 18+ game. I think it's a great idea, and will minimize the divide between players.
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Post by Knief on May 11, 2008 13:54:06 GMT -5
Chaseman,
It's not all about skill at milsim games. Much more so than that, it's about an atmosphere. The games become more serious, which makes the more tense and enjoyable in that aspect. Part of that atmosphere is playing with men, not boys. It hardly feels like milsim when you look back at your squad and it's half full of 4 foot nothing 14 year olds. That just doesn't lend itself to a situation that simulates a military engagement. Maybe you don't know this because you haven't played in one yet, but games at which everybody is an adult just have a completely different feel. They're not necessarily better or worse, but it's a feel that lends itself to milsim games.
I'm like a lot of guys here. Sometimes, it's just fun to get my gun off. I want to be able to play games that are a constant fire fight in a target rich environment, and those are perfect games for all ages. But every once in a while, a lot of us crave a more serious, more adult oriented game. And to do that, you really need to limit it to just adults.
I've been on the excluded side. When events started getting bigger in Michigan, I was about 16 years old. Around that time, most of them went to an 18+ age limit and I was SOL. I couldn't go to any of the bigger games for like, a year and a half. And while it kind of sucks, the younger crowd can just suck it up and deal. And back then, us under 18 kids were excluded from going to every game, not just one or two a season. There is absolutely no reason to complain about being left out when there are two or three major games every month, and so far, only one of those is going to be 18+. If somebody's feelings are really hurt by being "left out" of that one game, they might be a little to sensitive to play a war game. If you can't go, buck up and find the next one.
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Post by Mosin on May 11, 2008 14:29:11 GMT -5
Chaseman, It's not all about skill at milsim games. Much more so than that, it's about an atmosphere. The games become more serious, which makes the more tense and enjoyable in that aspect. Part of that atmosphere is playing with men, not boys. It hardly feels like milsim when you look back at your squad and it's half full of 4 foot nothing 14 year olds. That just doesn't lend itself to a situation that simulates a military engagement. Maybe you don't know this because you haven't played in one yet, but games at which everybody is an adult just have a completely different feel. They're not necessarily better or worse, but it's a feel that lends itself to milsim games. I'm like a lot of guys here. Sometimes, it's just fun to get my gun off. I want to be able to play games that are a constant fire fight in a target rich environment, and those are perfect games for all ages. But every once in a while, a lot of us crave a more serious, more adult oriented game. And to do that, you really need to limit it to just adults. I've been on the excluded side. When events started getting bigger in Michigan, I was about 16 years old. Around that time, most of them went to an 18+ age limit and I was SOL. I couldn't go to any of the bigger games for like, a year and a half. And while it kind of sucks, the younger crowd can just suck it up and deal. And back then, us under 18 kids were excluded from going to every game, not just one or two a season. There is absolutely no reason to complain about being left out when there are two or three major games every month, and so far, only one of those is going to be 18+. If somebody's feelings are really hurt by being "left out" of that one game, they might be a little to sensitive to play a war game. If you can't go, buck up and find the next one. +1 Well said Knief. Honestly, if I can't attend a game because I'm 17, and the age restriction is over 18. Then I'll talk to the owner of the field, be it over the phone, or PM. I can also have a lot of people vouch for my maturity (My entire team and a lot of friends on this fine forum). I've only played one MilSim style game, and it was probably the biggest adreniline rush of my life, more than me laying down in the dirt, looking up and seeing a squad of kids coming towards me, knowing that if I make so much as one noise.. I'm going to get shot. Something about hearing a whole bunch of chatter on a radio, with guys that you can perform hand signals to, and actually understand, and then have fearless people who are willing to breach a room blindly (Knief.. you and I did this quite a bit at the CQC.. Good times buddy). But then, you need to be able to hang out in the downtime zones and not worry about swearing or saying dirty things because of young ears around. MilSim is just more Adult orientated, and honestly.. If event hosters are going to make it 18+.. Then I'll wait until I'm out of the Navy, or if I'm home on leave for a minute after I'm 18. Of course that'd be if they weren't willing to make an exception.
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Post by Canto on May 11, 2008 14:39:51 GMT -5
I personally think age is a poor judge of maturity. We might consider a 17+ or 16+ milsim event for the older players. But I feel 18+ might detract from quite a few players who are mature enough to handle the game. Any ideas?
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Post by Mosin on May 11, 2008 15:25:03 GMT -5
Maybe have it be 18+.. But if you're under you need to have 3 well known players in the Michigan Airsoft Community over the age of 18 vouch for you..?
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Post by Chaseman on May 11, 2008 15:42:59 GMT -5
I am not against the 18+ games at all. I'm just saying it would be nice to have some training, from the people on here that say, it use to be more fun. I am sure for them it was. But if you show enough people how to do it right or the older ways. It might make all the games more fun for everyone. Where the noobs understand tactics and why they are used. Why they might have to die, so the objective is completed.. So when you call for a rush, they rush instead of hiding behind a log. Wondering why their team never wins.... That kinda of stuff. I think it would help EVERYONE including me.
PM me if your interested in being a trainer. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE
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Post by Gentner on May 11, 2008 16:21:46 GMT -5
Maybe have it be 18+.. But if you're under you need to have 3 well known players in the Michigan Airsoft Community over the age of 18 vouch for you..? Thats the way it is in Ohio. 3 Well known people have to vouch for you if your under 18. But when I attended Blind Fury 4 in September, it was 16+ and I was probably 1 of the 15 who were under 18 who attended out of 400, and we didnt have any problems there. I think I'm the product of two siblings sleeping together.. doy!, I guess if you expose MilSim to the kiddies out their, they'll see that its not for them, and then they wont attend a MilSim op, and then that will make it better for those of us who want to play MilSim events. If it starts to turn to 18+ events, well I guess that sucks for me, but then again, if we have the vouch thing, then we may have a couple 16 year olds out on the field, but not a ton of them.
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Post by SGT. Darcness on May 11, 2008 16:26:58 GMT -5
The only problem with this is the subjectivity of the equation. How do we quantify people as well known airsofters. This is a rather difficult thing to do I would think. If some one wanted to play all they have to do is get 3 of their teammates to vouch for them, and bingo, their in.
I think this would be a good idea, but it definitely needs to be structured in some way. Otherwise you get to the point that 18+ doesn't really carry much weight. If there is a set age limit, I would think it should be either strictly enforced with no exceptions, or highly defined for any exceptions that may be in place.
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