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Post by Smokey on Jun 18, 2002 23:48:46 GMT -5
Ok, my two cents on the silencer/suppressor bit. I've always been under the impression that there are two ways to get rid of a bullets noise (both revolve around reduction of muzzle velocity). 1) Deliberately bleed off some of the propelling gas to reduce the velocity or 2) Design a catridge that will be subsonic in the first place. The fundamentals of a silencer apply to the former technique while a supressor to the latter. I'm pretty sure that we all agree that firing a weapon makes two noises, firstly the muzzle blast, and secondly the sonic wave generated by the bullet travelling faster than the speed of sound (Supersonic). A suppressor can be simply screwed onto a weapons muzzle and it will suppress the muzzle blast but will not slow the bullet down thus will do nothing for the noise generated by the bullet. In order to fully "silence" a bullet with a suppressor you would have to use subsonic ammunition (ammunition that's been "bleeded" to ensure it doesnt break the sound barrier). A silencer will have the same effect without the need for subsonic ammunition since it is designed to "bleed" off propelling gasses. Now many will ask why bother with suppressors when you have silencers. If I recall correctly to silence a 9mm Parabellum (to a desirable level) one would need to attach a silencer that is *atleast* 10 inches long. Imagine THAT on the end of a Beretta and you've got yourself a handful. Thanks, sorry for the long post Feel free to correct me if I botched anything up.
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Post by Ballista on Jun 19, 2002 0:18:12 GMT -5
Smokey, you're right. I didn't want to weigh in on the discussion for fear of perpetuating a "useless debate" (me eyes Newman & Minky), but the terms silencer and suppressor are both used by firearm manufacturers and enthusiasts, and have different meanings.
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Post by Newman on Jun 19, 2002 13:55:45 GMT -5
Hey Ballista, I didn't argue last game.
Vitalis and I were talking about the exact thing that Smokey said above (subsonic ammo and silen...suppressor) and I accidently said "silencer". I've heard the debate for too long and just misspoke-I believe it's suppressor, not silencer, unless there is no report (sound) from the gun at all.
*evil eye*
"Run away!" ;D
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Post by Ballista on Jun 20, 2002 0:52:24 GMT -5
Well, Smokey correctly explained the difference; just pointing it out.............. ......... What distinguishes the two devices has nothing to do with sound. *runs away*
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Post by Smokey on Jun 20, 2002 1:22:43 GMT -5
Yes, point me out. =)
*runs after ballista*
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Post by Newman on Jun 20, 2002 9:35:09 GMT -5
Well, I'm confused, so I'll go sit on meh arse.
Suppressor does not equal silencer, right?
But...silencer means that no sound comes out, and suppressor means it lowers the decibels somewhat. Right?
I always just took it that people meant suppressor when they meant silencer because I've never heard of a gun shoot totally silent with a muffling device (except for a .22).
Please correct my assumptions here, Ballista, Smokey.
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Post by Ballista on Jun 21, 2002 0:16:28 GMT -5
Ok, I'll reiterate what smokey said A Silencer reduces the bullet's speed to subsonic range, which eliminates the loud pop - but you're still gonna hear a slight crack, like if you were to use subsonic ammo in the first place. Suppressors don't reduce bullet speed. Neither are meant to eliminate sound completely.
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Post by Newman on Jun 21, 2002 8:48:27 GMT -5
I didn't realize that this meant "slowing the bullet down to subsonic speed"...or whatever. Sorry for the confusion. Anybody ever shot subsonic ammunition? It's quite nifty; with .22 it just makes a "thud" sound like a paintball gun (just a little louder). I bet subsonic .223 (5.56 mm) would be a lot louder. Anybody know if that was the real sound they used in Black Hawk Down when the Delta guy had the suppressed M16 variant, since 5.56 needs to be subsonic in order to be used with a suppressor? That wasn't very loud. EDIT: Ballista, none of your pictures on your posts work (avatar, signature) most of the time, not always. It's still quite annoying.
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Post by Ballista on Jun 21, 2002 12:51:34 GMT -5
Evil Digitalrice... Recommend an alternate websapce provider?
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Post by Smokey on Jun 21, 2002 23:57:40 GMT -5
One final point... just by silencing the muzzle blast and bullet you do not completely silence the weapon. Assuming we're talking about a automatic or semi-automatic weapon, you have to compensate for the clatter of the action going back, the jingle of the case being ejected, and the crash of the bolt closing again. It's because of this that single shot weapons with positively locked breeches are the favorite for silencing.
An Example of a Suppressor - The H&K 7.62mm G3 rifle registers at 163dB 2 meters from the muzzle at the right-angles to the line of fire. However, when coupled with a special made H&K suppressor (Suppressor because it merely muffles the muzzle blast) the weapon registers 148 dB. This is a very substantial drop of 15 dB (For those unfamiliar with dB a drop of 10 dB means halving the volume)
An Example of a "Silenced" Weapon - The De Lisle is a weapon that was developed for Commandos during World War 2. It is said to be the quietest silenced weapon to ever be developed. It fires a .45 ACP round. I can't locate reliable numbers for the dB levels but I can confirm that the *only* noise you hear when you fire it is the metallic click of the firing pin going forward and the thud of the 240 grain .45 hitting the target. Of course being bolt-action a second shots requires you to work the bolt to chamber another round. But for a completely silent 100 meter headshot there are no substitutes.
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Tommlux9
New Member
M4A1 and WA CDP
Posts: 55
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Post by Tommlux9 on Jun 26, 2002 0:08:22 GMT -5
i dont know if any one has ever heard a real MP5 SD6 but for reference to smokeys last paragraph
when the SD6 is fired (with subsonic 9mm amunition) you hear the action, extracter, and bolt moving back and then you hear what can only be described as the sound of a break action hunting pellet rifle
corect me if i am wrong on this part but i belive from personal experience that the SD6 is the quietest modern semi/full auto SMG made
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Post by Newman on Jun 26, 2002 0:36:38 GMT -5
On HKpro.com, they have a movie of the SD6s firing...and it totally conflicts with another movie I have seen. The HKPro movie has just a "click" sound, but I really think they changed the sound of the gun digitally OR were using subsonic ammo (which is not really supposed to be used with the built-in H&K suppressor). HKPro movie: boards.hkpro.com/video/MP5SD.MOVIndependent movie: www.starsol.org/ericl/MP5SD.MOVThose two guns definitely don't sound very much alike...the HKPro movie sounds "muffled".
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Post by Ballista on Jun 26, 2002 2:15:21 GMT -5
The MP5SD is supposedly the quietest "off the shelf" silenced automatic on the market today. It sounds like an airsoft GBB, but much much louder. The clank of the bolt smacking around is just audible to the person firing the gun.
Soooo, a KSC GBB SD would kick ass.
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Post by Motown on Jun 26, 2002 4:42:37 GMT -5
The MP5sd does have a "firing sound"
Its hard to describe, but its a faint clicking sound, not just that of the firing pin and the bolt
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Post by Newman on Jun 26, 2002 7:11:25 GMT -5
....am I invisible? Watch those two movies above, they do a much better job than you two guys talking about it.
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