Vitalis
New Member
I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
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Post by Vitalis on Apr 30, 2002 0:07:49 GMT -5
Ok, I know we are new around here, and pretty much virgins to airsoft, but I would like to throw my two cents in as well if you don't mind. Our fledgling group has talked about this quite a bit since we started getting into this. When it comes to speed, we were planning on sticking with Cimmerian rules on Fps limits, which is basically 395 with .20 and 350 with .25 and just plain not exceeding it. We also have a 10' minimum engagement rule as well though we tend not to use it amongst ourselves and wouldn't use it if everyone playing didn't mind getting zinged with those fps limits at the occasional close range. The reason we decided on the limit wasn't from a fear of pain, it was to stop the inevitable giant testicle syndrome and keep some of our members from having 500fps guns... If MiA decides to play with a lower limit or a limit like Airsoft Ohio has (which I think is great btw), we would happily conform to that. But a rule needs to be set, and it needs to be clear. I know from experience in other milsim forms of combat that "common sense" agreements just don't work in the long run. Sooner or later your group grows and someone will start deviating from the rest and get some god weapon or something. As for the ANSI rated protective goggles. That is another one where the group is just going to have to put their foot down on. Safety glasses are a bad idea. Full face seal with a minimum ANSI Z87.1 rating should be mandatory. You can't replace eyes. I don't mean to sound preachy, and I appologize if I do, but safety shouldn't be screwed with. Don't leave it to the honor system. From what I have seen, MiA is really starting to grow, pretty soon, things might just get out of control. It is bound to happen with so many people. Back in the 60's when the medieval group I belong to started, there were only about 20 people. So there were no armor or weapon regulations. Now the society has around 100,000 members and there are regulations regarding weapons, armor, and becoming "authorized" (read: safe) to fight. Every event before we fight we go through armor inspections to see if our gear is safe and weapon inspections to make sure they are safe as well. It is a pain, I don't think all of it is necessary, but at least I know that anyone out there swinging a weapon at me is legal. So yeah, to sum it all up, I fully think that ANSI approved full face sealing eye protection is a must. I also think that a limit of shooting 350fps with .25s is a good limit. Thanks for letting a new guy give his opinion... Vitalis Team Draconis www.legiodraconis.com
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Ed
New Member
Retired
Posts: 630
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Post by Ed on Apr 30, 2002 12:53:50 GMT -5
I'd like to say a few things.
Jon's AUG rifle was upgraded in a responcible manner. We tested it and toned it down before we would let anyone be shot by it. Remember: before last October, Jon was shooting at only LKA members (we didn't play with anyone else). If I would have a problem with that gun, I would have limited it's velocity. Also, that gun was upgraded for long distance shooting very heavy BB's, not super-high velocity.
About goggles: why shouldn't it be up to the player to decide which goggles to use? Many airsoft groups use safety goggles with great success. Who are you to tell me how to play airsoft? They are MY eyes not yours.
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Post by Bigmack on Apr 30, 2002 13:44:59 GMT -5
"Grandpa, how'd you lose your eye?" "Playing Airsoft, dear..."
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Post by Minky on Apr 30, 2002 13:47:45 GMT -5
About goggles: why shouldn't it be up to the player to decide which goggles to use? Many airsoft groups use safety goggles with great success. Who are you to tell me how to play airsoft? They are MY eyes not yours. That has to be one of the most asinine and selfish statements I've ever read. They may be your eyes, but how do you think the guy who manages to get a shot bouncing around inside your "safety" glasses would feel? I could care less if you want to shoot your own eye and go blind, but whenever an airsoft event is held, it's the responsibility of organizers and fellow players to ensure that safety is the number one concern. For eye protection that means that there should be no gaps big enough for a 6mm BB to possibly get through... and if you think it won't happen you're just being naive. For example, read this thread over at AirsoftOhio: www.airsoftohio.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=2432&forum=13&25 Some unlucky player caught a ricochet that got into his shooting glasses and right into his eye.... it happens, and if you think ignoring the risk will make it go away, I'll be sitting here waiting for you to come tell your story as soon as one of your players loses an eye because it wasn't worth the cost of gas to go to Walmart and plunk down some change for peace of mind. As for the AUG, I already said I thought he used it wisely and didn't abuse the power of it, but you can't try and tell me a 300% spring wasn't used to give "super-high velocity". I think you've fallen pray to a misconception shared by many airsofters, which is that using heavier weight BBs in a heavely upgraded gun somehow makes it safer. The energy of the BB in joules is constant (for argument's sake), so a gun that shoots .20s at 550 or so is not made "safe" by using .43 to drop the muzzle speed to 400 or whatever the speed loss may be. The energy of the BB leaving that gun will be the same, and the safety concerns come from an energy standpoint, not just a muzzle velocity figure. Feel free to read AO's rules, which as you'll notice set their gun limits based on energy and BB weight. For example, their limit for Support Weapons is 1.5J with .25 gram BBs. This translates into about 359 FPS with .25s, or 402 FPS with .20. Check out the Cimmerian's Joules-FPS utility to make your own comparisons: 216.103.65.124/cimmerians/power.html?action=fps
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Post by Hadoken on Apr 30, 2002 13:50:27 GMT -5
I feel that eye protection should probably be the biggest concern with Airsoft. Even before I had an AEG I had already bought goggles that met the ANSI Z87.1 performance standard so that I knew my eyes would be well protected. And believe me I'm glad I have them, I've been shot in the goggles so many times now I'm sure with anything weaker I would have already had some serious injury. What I really find strange is that you Ed and the rest of the LK clan have all your guns upgraded with both serious and expensive internal and external modifications yet you totally ignore more important things like your eyes. I've never heard of any other groups using only safety goggles, and if there are any out there that do use them it's probably because like you they don't know any better. Here's a link with some nice goggles, all should meet the ANSI Z87.1 performance standard. Mine are there also. (Paulson Tactical Goggles) Click here.Sure some of those may be a little on the pricey side, but still it's way cheaper than paying a doctor to take bb's and sharp plastic fragments out of your eye. And about your comment: "Who are you to tell me how to play airsoft? They are MY eyes not yours" While they may be your eyes, I simply do not want to be held responsible for your eye loss. Now if you'd rather be stubborn and stick to your safety/shop glasses that's fine with me, but you won't be playing in any of our events that's for sure.
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Blorfo
New Member
Back to Banville
Look! I'm not causing trouble this time!
Posts: 766
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Post by Blorfo on Apr 30, 2002 18:24:51 GMT -5
while were on the subject of eye protection, do you people think this counts as a valid test for eye protection? I bought a pair of safety glasses at the hardware store and then stepped on them, (I weigh 185) threw things at them, threw them at the ground from my attic window (3 stories) and beat them with a TV remote. theyre still in one piece with no scratches that I'm aware of. (i think theyre good)
wow that seemed pointless to post, but you can never be too sure.
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DUNCAN
New Member
{LKA Group} ? ? ? ?Custom Marui AK-47s, KSC Steyr SPP, Glock 19
Posts: 167
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Post by DUNCAN on Apr 30, 2002 19:26:13 GMT -5
Well, about Jonny's AUG, the supposed 300% spring is only a 200% spring which is not very bad, I believe it may be close to standards, he should still stay further away from the opposing forces, and he knows to do that.
My opinion on the goggles aspect, is that we should have certified protection with collected MIA games, this will show good manner and keep people from liablilities of getting an eye shot out. Otherwise on your/our own time, and with your/our own time, with your/our own little teams or what not, whatever floats your boat should be fine. We have played many small springer games, and we still are getting used to the fact of highly upgraded guns so safety glasses basically have been the norm, but at following MIA events, certified goggles probably should be worn.
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Vitalis
New Member
I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
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Post by Vitalis on Apr 30, 2002 19:28:43 GMT -5
First, please excuse my typing. I justwoke up from wrist surgury about 4 hours ago... As for crushing safety glasses, I ran over mine with a 12,000 pound forklift and the lenses lived. Frames were shot though.... It still doesnt mean they provide a face seal. No face seal means open gaps to take shots. Still unsafe. There is no way to ever make sure that someone is entirely safe, but goggles can be had for 12.00 Aren't your eyes worth 12 bucks? Thanks Vitalis
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Blorfo
New Member
Back to Banville
Look! I'm not causing trouble this time!
Posts: 766
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Post by Blorfo on Apr 30, 2002 19:51:33 GMT -5
oh, no, my friend, i have devised a face seal. i wear a t-shirt on my head.
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Vitalis
New Member
I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
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Post by Vitalis on Apr 30, 2002 20:38:13 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That rocks... but hey, if it works
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Blorfo
New Member
Back to Banville
Look! I'm not causing trouble this time!
Posts: 766
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Post by Blorfo on Apr 30, 2002 20:47:35 GMT -5
one day, hopefully, youll all see what im talking about. its pretty nifty, acutally. and it makes a great low-cost disguise if you're on the run......or...........playing airsoft!
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Post by Minky on May 3, 2002 12:00:48 GMT -5
Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but it's an important horse... the horse of safety! ;D Anyway, the guys at AO just posted a video of what can happen when you play without a full facial seal on your eyewear: www.airsoftohio.com/phpBB/files/539.mov I don't know how anybody could watch that and ever play with safety/shooting glasses again.... You can also see what I was talking about when I mentioned how the person who ends up getting the "lucky" shot through your glasses would feel; everyone is worried about the guy and some offer him better eye protection. Even if you don't care about your eyesight, some other people do!
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Vitalis
New Member
I want to shoot somebody, airsoft style...
Posts: 320
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Post by Vitalis on May 3, 2002 12:36:38 GMT -5
Minky, I for one am totally on board with you, as are the rest of my people. So, that makes at least five of us. If I may be so bold, here are my recommendations; 1. Utilize either AO's fps and range rules or the Cimmerian fps and range rules. This will give a starting base and tweaks can be made later. 2. Full sealing ANSI rated goggles. No exceptions. 3. Plastic ammo only. No exceptions. Make these official MiA rules. If someone wants to play with safety glasses or feels that you have no right to tell them what to do. Fine, they can use any gear they like, but not at MiA events. No exceptions. When a group starts to grow large (and I know this from experience) rules can not be taken for granted. They must be written down because what one person finds acceptable and feels safe with another does not. "Gentleman" agreements just will not work. Humanity varies too much for that. But bottom line, someone has to step forward and put the rules down now. Not with a vote, not with democratic policy. Just put them down. And then if things don't work, start making changes. After the initial rules are in place, then it is time for everyone's opinions and the tweaking can begin. Thanks for letting me sound off... Respectfully, Vitalis
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Post by SickPointe on May 4, 2002 12:27:24 GMT -5
This came to my attention on the Airsoft Ohio boards. They are cheap but well built full seal: store.yahoo.com/botach/aearlexdusgo.html I thought you guys would like this since there seems to be some conflict between goggle guys and glasses guys. UNITY! Hey I just noticed it was our very own Locutus that posted this. Come back to MiA Locutus!
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Post by Viking on May 4, 2002 23:07:29 GMT -5
Okay well lets see here. hmmm. I for one have never played with fps, range limits. For almost 4 years now I haven’t, and never have I or any of my comrades at arms ever been hurt at any game (from an airsoft gun, I have had a few run-ins with wasp... trees... hills... barbwire). But as Minkster said MIA is growing and its just time before someone gets hurt in an organization without law. Now the players I played with were all mature players and they pretty much knew that a good airsoft player plays like. But, nonetheless safety must come first and rules must be set. Before I touch upon what I think limits should be set to I would like to start by saying I think its total BS that we leave the final word to Hado and Jack here. For one, MiA while started by Hado is in no way here because of Hado, its here because we are all committed to being involved with MiA. There fore I think the best and fair way of setting rules would be to either do it by majority rules OR take a preexisting set of rules and sue them, if need comes they can be tweaked. The rules I would personally recommend would be that of the Cimmerians, prolly the best and most organized airsoft team on the face of the planet. Their rules are fair and they are not sissy. 395 with .20 and 350 with .25 w/ sniper rifles I would recommend no exceeding 500 under any circumstance with .20 (course sniper rifle in its self defines semi or bolt action) Range, I hate the idea of range limits. No I don’t want anyone to get shot pointblank of course and I for sure the hell don’t want to be shot point blank BUT some of the range limits I’ve seen around the web are utter crap. You have to remember this is airsoft, max affective range for most guns are limited to about 50 yards that’s 150 feet and most likely upgraded already. Even though I don’t approve of range limits they do need to be implemented, for I am sure not everyone that is in our will join our community will be ... cautious enough to shoot responsibly. I would purpose range limits to be set to: 0-300 30' > 10 yards. *aprox* 300-400 45' > 15 yards *aprox* 400-500 75' > 25 yards *aprox* As much as I hate restrictions in airsoft my little chat with Minky today and seeing how I host the majority of MiA supported games if someone where to get hurt the outcome would fall on my shoulders, which makes my stomach turn even thinking about it. As for eye protection: I have always rated a set of goggle on this system: I take a gbb, in my case lately a Tac Master, I set the goggle up against the wall so they can not slide. I then take one big step backwards, aim and fire at the lens. If no signs of breakage or weakening appears I believe they are safe to use. BUT. I think the safest and smartest guideline would be is to go with the ANSI Z87.1 performance standard. An eye however CAN be replaced; weather or not its functional is another story. What else? Hmmm. Oh and Ed and the rest of you LK guys play with the rules you and your group feels comfortable with. I would hate others to tell me how to play my games, I know where your coming from, I really think its bull that Hado and Jack think they can set the rule sand we all follow them. But realize they are just looking out for yours and everyone’s safety that participate in MiA games. Play with what your group feels comfortable with, it’s the guys you play with and have fun with that should be making the rules, not Jack and not Hado. Unfortunately for me the guys I play with are just that, Hado his cronies and prolly Jack sooner or later so I guess I have to suck it up and bear with it.
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