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Post by luke213 on Dec 28, 2014 17:18:09 GMT -5
Well guys I've been full of questions lately but this is something I've been doing some research and thinking on as well. When I got the chance to play a few weeks ago I realized something, I can't see at night nearly as well as I could 10 years ago;) I knew that but it wasn't nearly as obvious until I was playing against much younger eye's that my vision is way worse at night than it used to be. Granted my vision has never been good I've worn glasses for years, and I forgot after all these years to wear contacts when playing airsoft rather than glasses so I was having some serious fogging issues as well.
Anyways after thinking about getting a sniper rifle going, I started thinking about optics and maybe night vision. When I used to play I had a Gen 1 night scope that I used on my real AR, that I would occasionally swap onto my airsoft gun to go out and play. It made a heck of a difference in dark situations, even though it required IR illumination to work in full dark. Where I am there is no light bleed, so it's dark without a moon etc. I got eying the current tech there and found as it was back then it's just out of my price point. But in looking into that I stumbled onto Jakks night vision goggles and all the toys that have come out with night vision tech. And I understand they are just low lux IR cameras with IR emitters but that doesn't seem that far from the Gen 1 stuff I used to play around with.
What keeps coming up though in my reading is that people are saying they aren't able to walk and have no depth perception. Well from what I understand of real NV tech, that's an issue there as well. Enough guys I know who are military or ex-military have said the same things about the goggles and whatnot they have used. I've run into the same thing with just single tube setups, but never played with any goggle systems since they weren't available in a price I could afford. So since I missed the boat by several years on these new since it looks like they came out between 2008-2012 or so there is information but not what I'm looking for. My question is has anyone spent some time fiddling with these to try and acclimate to actually walking and functioning with them? In my mind but maybe I'm stubborn I figure I could get a set and spend a fair amount of time getting used to the way the optics work and maybe function wearing some for night games. I know I won't likely be able to normally shoulder my rifle, nor use the sights or red dot, but I'm considering sighting using an IR laser which should show up just fine in the goggles.
So real input on how they work and if you've had any success using them in airsoft or any other application. The other thought I had was using them along with a normal AR for predator shooting around the shop at night again with a mounted IR or even visible laser in that application.
I guess since someone out there has to own a set of these they are just too cool of a toy for the price to have no one else have had the same idea and maybe a bit more perseverance to the optics issues. It seems like most of the reviews just say off the cuff it's not possible to walk or function using these but it seems like they are dropping the ball in my mind of what could be a pretty dang cool piece of kit;)
Another thought I had was building something from scratch using the same tech, or even possibly rigging up a scope for the sniper rifle in the same vein, but that's probably more time than I have to invest in the project.
Take care!
Luke
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Simon
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Post by Simon on Dec 28, 2014 17:58:00 GMT -5
I had one of the spy gear NV monocles for a bit and although the screen is crap I could actually see better in the dark. It had a built in illuminator too. Not strong, but something. However the issue I had when I was testing it out was that the screen was too bright. It made it hard to see for a second or two after I looked away from the screen. You get what you pay for with NV and you know that, so don't expect anything great. That being said, pick one up at Walmart or meijer and see what you think. You can always return them.
Speaking of, I kind of want to get one again.
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Post by luke213 on Dec 28, 2014 18:20:25 GMT -5
Well and what I'm thinking about mostly is the original Eyeclops style, maybe the newer binoculars or the Modern Warfare 2 setup they sold. Mainly I'd like something head or helmet mounted that would pretty much stay in place through the game. My main reason for that is I know my actual eye night vision will be shot from looking into anything bright like a screen and I've noticed that rather than a couple seconds for my eye's to adjust down to low light it's more like a couple minutes anymore;) Or at least it seems like that. So I'm thinking by keeping them on, my night vision will be shot but I'd be able to see through the goggles at least.
I might use them in more of a sniper type of application, IE not running around more less. So I'm thinking slow cautious movement and maybe even crawling more so than walking as a possibility. Mostly I'd just like to be able to see in the dark a little easier;) But I also know with the price point that if it is effective there will be other players taking the cue and getting some of the same gear since the price point is so attractive and at that point it's going to look like I'm crawling around with a flashlight strapped to my head;) So this may not be my best plan but it seems really like an interesting little piece of technology that might have some airsoft potential as well as maybe making use of it for other stuff around here.
You mentioned the screen being crap and that's one thing I'm slightly concerned with since I know lower res screens will make things really difficult to discern at any distance. I've got a 7in. screen with good resolution that I pulled out of a display years ago and have used for all sorts of things over the years. It's really too big for what I'd like since 7in. is massive for anything attached to the body. But since it's here and I've also got some IR night vision security cameras laying around from my setup at the shop. I might just do some playing with that and see if I can't rig up some sort of functional scope setup. If that works then maybe I'll start looking into smaller screens and a more integrated setup for a scope. The one plus to the scope is it wouldn't have to be on constantly and because of that I could swap it on use it, then turn it off negating at least some of the risk of another player spotting the IR with their own equipment.
I've also looked into building my own night vision setup using actual tubes, or the older style tubes(the name is failing me right now), but they were used in the night vision systems in tanks and other military applications. Looks like those are available fairly cheaply though they are heavy and only practical in a weapon mounted setup. The general consensus on those though is that they rival Gen 3 systems for light gathering with the right optics and whatnot. But we're also talking about a few hundred dollars rather than sub 100 stuff. So much higher budget gear but also very interesting;)
Still open to input if guys have tried the goggle systems etc, love to hear of any experiences with it.
Luke
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Simon
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Post by Simon on Dec 28, 2014 20:34:54 GMT -5
Haven't made this myself but it's something you could try. Night vision from an old video camera: youtu.be/L9mwGeDAxhk
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Post by luke213 on Dec 28, 2014 21:14:52 GMT -5
That's somewhat close to my plan. Using an lcd screen rather then the viewfinder and one of my security cameras with ir leds to start with. I may test some viewfinder stuff down the road I'm just not sure how the resolution is on those little crt screens so we'll see. I'd still rather have something head mounted to play with though Luke
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Krutch
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To all those against us, good luck.
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Post by Krutch on Dec 28, 2014 23:40:30 GMT -5
A problem to remember with cheaper NVG units is that they generally don't work well unless there is IR support. This IR lights you up like a Christmas tree to people that can run their highend without the IR illumination.
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Post by luke213 on Dec 29, 2014 0:40:04 GMT -5
That's a concern but I don't expect up here to see anything much beyond what I'm looking at building. Possibly but unlikely even so with gen1 or another ir setup it would be easy to see any ir illumination so it's something to keep in mind. Another way to deal with it though would be to setup an ir without illumination since it would allow me to see someone else running illumination without giving away a position. Either way I'll deal with that once I get to that problem Luke
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Post by Gunny87 on Dec 29, 2014 12:16:51 GMT -5
I bought a cheap COD MW2 NVG on Ebay a couple years ago just for shits and giggles mostly and there's no way I would field them in an airsoft game. At least in an outdoor setting. It basically uses the same set up that a cheap video camera that has a "night vision" feature utilizes. You can't see very far with them since they don't have effective illumination, and the one setting that does give better illumination lights up the goggles externally with red lights (mostly for looks) that would immediately make you noticeable to other players in the dark. The other issues with the set is that they are formed to fit around your head, so I never found an effective way of putting full seal goggles on underneath. Also they have really bad tunnel vision so I'd probably get more hurt wearing them in an actual night setting than I would not wearing them at all.
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Post by luke213 on Dec 29, 2014 12:22:23 GMT -5
Are they solid enough themselves to work as eye pro more less without putting anything under them? IE don't remove them once on the field?
On the illumination if I do DIY or use something pre built like those I'm going to have to likely add allot of IR illumination so I'm planning for that in the form of a tac light likely with an IR head installed which from what I've seen on the DIY side of things should give light out to around 100 yards or further. But that said with something like these headsets I don't know that they have enough resolution to actually get that far out.
I'm pretty committed to trying something to see if I can still play at night, I used to really enjoy night games but if I'm honest that last one was terrible for me I just couldn't see anything and couldn't effectively do much about it. So I figure I've got incentive to try and figure something out or not play at night again;) I'd rather try and figure out some sort of answer, even if it means tunnel vision and not being able to remove the goggles during the game;)
Take care!
Luke
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Post by Gunny87 on Dec 29, 2014 12:41:29 GMT -5
Are they solid enough themselves to work as eye pro more less without putting anything under them? IE don't remove them once on the field? I would say so. They provide a full seal around your eyes. There's no lenses exposed so if they were to get shot, I don't see there being a way to cause any damage to your eyes, from what I can tell. Again they provide really bad tunnel vision, so what happens if you need to take them off while in the field? That's where I see it becoming an issue. Additionally, this might not matter for you, if you're playing on your own property, but I would be surprised if a legit field owner/host would approve them being worn without some form of full seal eye protection.
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Post by luke213 on Dec 29, 2014 13:49:40 GMT -5
I'm pretty much looking at it from playing around here, typically if I make it to a game anywhere outside the area it's summer so it's light later on, and I'm planning the trip 10 hours back home in most cases so I don't typically stay late. Well that said that was 8-10 years back since I played downstate;)
So I'm not too worries about a field owner not allowing it, but I am very much interested in safety for my eyes as always. Looking at them I figured the same thing though, they look to be full seal more less. And I figure that between glasses and goggles I've had enough situations where I couldn't see and wanted to remove them and couldn't that it wouldn't be that much worse from that standpoint. And in smaller games it's easy enough to call a cease fire if something comes up that requires it, seldom are people far enough away that a good solid yell isn't enough to stop play at least here.
I'm really curious about the tunnel vision though, does it seem like there is amplification IE it's not 1x level zoom or do you think that it has to do with both eye's seeing the same thing on the screen. Since like I mentioned I know a fair number of guys that have used real night vision systems mostly a few years back in Iraq etc, and their view was that depth perception was very very difficult until they really used the systems for a while and came to grips with that difference of perspective. I guess I'd love to hear someone who tried both and figured out if it's something you could train yourself to do like the real deal or if it's just not even a possibility.
Take care!
Luke
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Krutch
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To all those against us, good luck.
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Post by Krutch on Dec 29, 2014 14:04:12 GMT -5
The tunnel vision is pretty easy to explain. First of all, when you are looking through a night vision device it cuts your field of view by over half. Im not sure what the normal human eye fov is, but its probobly around 100°ish. Lets use a PVS-14 as an example, those tubes cut your fov to a very slim 40° with a +\- 2°. This obviously takes away all peripheral vision. On top of that, the image you see is pulled from the end of the tube, thus the image is essentially "delayed" in terms of depth perception, because the image is not being created at your actual eyes.
I am not an expert on NVG, but I have used them a decent amount. I may have made this all really confusing, but its the best way I can explain it.
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Post by luke213 on Dec 29, 2014 14:15:08 GMT -5
This may sound silly but can you think of a way to emulate the same feeling that you get wearing the goggles. IE covering one eye and wearing a bag on your head;) Not that simple but just an example. Some people mentioned looking through toilet paper rolls etc.
In my mind it just seems like something that would be able to be worked with. In video games as an example the FOV is almost always less than vision because of the lack of peripheral which of course is why we're seeing multiple monitors and all sort of other solutions. But I do recall in sim racing when I was involved in that, one of the hardest things to work with was lack of visibility to the side when driving wheel to wheel you just couldn't tell where the other car was without looking. I rigged up a head tracker to allow me to change POV to look left while passing or whatever to be able to see. I even did some head mounted display play for the same reason but even though it was weird I tend to adapt pretty quickly to that sort of thing. That said none of that involved me physically moving, just moving in game via some other mechanism so that certainly will play a role.
Luke
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Post by Gunny87 on Dec 29, 2014 14:56:16 GMT -5
Yeah the biggest con to using the cheap "COD NVG" and real Gen 1 NVG technology that I have is the loss of depth perception. Essentially this.... I was basically walking into walls and objects because they were closer than I thought they were.
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Post by luke213 on Dec 29, 2014 17:26:33 GMT -5
So it sounds like maybe the optics fall in the less then 1x category then, that's interesting.
I think I'm going to test the DIY stuff, after much youtube adventures and research I'm finding some really interesting builds that would be nice on an airsoft rifle particularly if no one else had night vision. And it would do very nicely for taking out predators at night around the chicken coup.
That said I think I'm going to have to pick up a set of these googles to play with as well just too dang tempting to have night vision strapped to my head and run around in the dark, or stumble depending on how it goes;)
Thanks for the insights!
Luke
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