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Post by TheEnd on Jul 21, 2014 1:48:53 GMT -5
I have enjoyed the sport less and less the last few years. Mostly for me, it has become too serious. At an indoor event last month I had this 80 pound kid in all the latest Gucci gear walk up behind me, grab my MAP pack strap and tell me "Tango at your 3, I'm goin' hot". I actually laughed at him.
The games I miss were the ones that were just for fun. It was god damn tan vs green. No rebels, no role players, no secret pacts. It was guys wearing tan shooting guys wearing green. The objectives were also always simple. King of the hill, get 10 guys over the bridge, the Civil War game (bring it back Pagan!!), the indoor Zombie games with springers and shot guns, old people vs young people, the game where you switch teams when shot and it's fucking chaos. These weren't really REC games, but they weren't the super serious sort of games that have been popular lately. There seemed to be a group of people who were serious enough in the sport but were just out to have fun that it was really well balanced.
Maybe it's just me, but for more and more people the fun is in the simulation and seriousness. The last few years I've had more and more confrontations in the sport. Last year at an outdoor game a guy got a clean shot on me and I was hit. I yelled hit, dropped my rifle and raised my right hand, went to pull out my dead rag and he shoots me again and yells "Call your fucking hit!". Myself and a couple team mates were dead, sitting on the ground in a building with our dead rags on our heads waiting for the mandatory bleed out, and this guy charges around the corner and lights my team mate up full auto. We yelled out "We're hit!" and he screamed back "That's right!". Now this year my team mates son was tackled to the ground.
I got into airsoft because it's fun to go out and shoot my friends. When I play I don't pretend to be some super hardcore military bad ass out in some foreign land bringing doom on Mr. Tango. We're grown ass men playing dress up carrying toy guns and shooting plastic at each other. In my opinion it's the light hearted fun that is missing. I can understand that many people want the simulation, and when those games come around I generally don't go. Different strokes. I just find games becoming less and less fun.
That's just how I see it anyway.
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Post by Gimpalong on Jul 21, 2014 5:50:00 GMT -5
In my opinion it's the light hearted fun that is missing. Yes. This. I've been trying to sum up my feelings for a while now and this encapsulates it.
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Post by Pagan on Jul 21, 2014 6:27:09 GMT -5
the Civil War game (bring it back Pagan!!) Come out to one of our games and I PROMISE, we'll have a civil war game or two. In my opinion it's the light hearted fun that is missing. I can understand that many people want the simulation, and when those games come around I generally don't go. Different strokes. I just find games becoming less and less fun. That's just how I see it anyway. I agree completely. The last few no limits games I've been stressing that we as players are there to have fun, and we won't tolerate the ""call your hits" bs. It's been working too, we've had maybe two instances of it during all three games. For shits and giggles, someone suggested we do pistol speedball at the game last Saturday. I asked everyone if they wanted to do and the majority was game. We also ran the same thing for people who only had AEGS. I honestly can't remember that many players laughing and joking around while playing since the last time we did that Civil War game at the field day last year. In the end we're here to enjoy ourselves. If a strict MILSIM environment is what you enjoy, awesome! If you're like myself and most of the guys on SK, or hell most of the people we hang around, we're there to have fun. If means wearing bright pink shirts on ZFS ( anyone who attended Northern Lights know what I'm talking about) or making the other team crack up while playing role players, do what makes the game fun for you. In the end it really isn't about "winning" or "losing" because if you win and a had a shitty time, was it really even worth it?
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Post by X on Jul 21, 2014 6:31:57 GMT -5
See I like both the serious play and the light hearted, dicking around, sort of play. To me that's MILSIM and REC respectively. When I go to the REC games with infinite spawns I'm out there running around like a maniac doing stupid shit I would never do if I had to walk a .5 mile and wait 10 minutes to spawn. I'm usually taunting people who are out of range, screaming like some crazy fresh out of the ward, shooting my teammates in the ass when they're turned the other way and just generally being a jackass. I also like to take it seriously sometimes though and play to win, I'm not out there yelling call your fucking hits, but I'll move slow and deliberate, use flanking maneuvers, and coordinate with a squad. Both are fun in different ways.
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Post by dizzyshot (Bad Company) on Jul 21, 2014 9:21:19 GMT -5
The Civil War games? I'm very interested in trying that. Staying on topic though it takes me 2 hours one way and 2 hours back just to play one of these games that last 6-9 hours when I could go to my local field and play 6 hours with less distance to travel.
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Post by Pagan on Jul 21, 2014 9:54:49 GMT -5
Staying on topic though it takes me 2 hours one way and 2 hours back just to play one of these games that last 6-9 hours when I could go to my local field and play 6 hours with less distance to travel. Notice is says Metro Detroit games? We're not looking at the attendance of people outside of the area. No one expects people to drive 2+ hours for a rec game (even though quite a few players do). What we're looking at are players who are in the area why they don't seem to come out as often. We had 100 players at the No Limits game on Saturday. Not record breaking numbers, but substantial none the less.
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Post by TheEnd on Jul 21, 2014 18:08:44 GMT -5
the Civil War game (bring it back Pagan!!) Come out to one of our games and I PROMISE, we'll have a civil war game or two. Hell yeah. We will make it out to one of the fall games for sure. I agree completely. The last few no limits games I've been stressing that we as players are there to have fun, and we won't tolerate the ""call your hits" bs. It's been working too, we've had maybe two instances of it during all three games. For shits and giggles, someone suggested we do pistol speedball at the game last Saturday. I asked everyone if they wanted to do and the majority was game. We also ran the same thing for people who only had AEGS. I honestly can't remember that many players laughing and joking around while playing since the last time we did that Civil War game at the field day last year. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Even small things like that during a normal game just to lighten the mood is fun. See I like both the serious play and the light hearted, dicking around, sort of play. To me that's MILSIM and REC respectively. The games I really enjoyed weren't at the extreme ends though. They had objectives, there was team work, and it was still fun. For example the milk crates full of water balloons that we had to shuttle from one base to another while the enemy team tried to shoot as many as possible. The objective was clear and simple, get as many balloons to the other base as possible. The team work was there. We really needed SAW gunners to help us get by open areas. It was fun. The hilarity of running through an open field and never getting hit while the precious water balloons were exploding next to you. When a team dropped a milk crate it was like open season and an insane amount of firing ensued and everyone fought to protect the last balloon. Those are the games I miss. I think if anything, the rift between MILSIM and REC is growing so that games are either hardcore impressionists or a bunch of kids in real tree and paint ball masks. That's not to say enjoying either one is wrong. Play what you like. I'm just thinking the fun sort of middle ground games have disappeared. I just think it would be cool if REC didn't have such a negative connotation and scare off such a huge majority of the forum players. In the end people will play what they want to play and there isn't much we can do. As mentioned before many people were bit by the national level bug at Northern Light.
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Post by Kjones on Jul 21, 2014 19:49:18 GMT -5
I really like that milk crate with baloons idea, im going to run that at this weekend matrix game. What are other game types that people miss or wish were played more. What are the games that you dont like? I personaly do not like the 300 games played at no limits and I do like games like plant the bomb.
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Post by Puma1 on Jul 21, 2014 21:04:50 GMT -5
I've personally been working on some props for a 'hazmat game' Basically, a big tan vs green clusterfuck.
Green or tan, eiher one, is given 4 suitcases with bio-bombs In them. They have to relocate all 4 by whatever means necessary to get them to allied forces acrossed the map(for this example, green). The opposing force is obviously trying to stop this from happening. (Tan)
The bombs are basically covered, wooden, hollow frames with a balloon filled with red water in the middle. A single bullet can and will destroy them, along with either a hard drop or quick movement. You'll have to move slow and rely on team mates to watch your back. If your case is hit, your dead ( and people in your immediate vicinity) and the bomb is gone.
Tan can also hijack these bombs and drop them in different locations to get massive points. Or simply hide them.
The real kicker here is that if a bomb is exploded, a 30ft circle is now considered impassable due to biohazards.
The real thing here is strategy, but to me, it's a good time to have a little fun and also have a goal as well.
Not sure on your thoughts, but I like it.
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thewolf
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Respect All...Fear None
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Post by thewolf on Jul 22, 2014 7:51:14 GMT -5
I will agree with the End and Pagan because they know how I am. When you take the fun aspect out of the game what the hell is it, Real life....NO not by along shot. I've see my share of bull shit at indoor, outdoor, rec game and milsim. My son and I play for the fun and the friends that we have made. The game to us is more of a meet up have a good time and catch up. I hope the sport does get to the point were I just can't justify going to events. so far it hasn't happen.
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Post by Mosin on Jul 22, 2014 15:53:39 GMT -5
You've got a lot of issues that sort of impede on each other with this, and I'm not entirely certain it will ever get better, as I don't know much of the new generation as much as I know most of the older guys. I think what has happened over the years is a constant degradation of these events. Hosts like to throw around buzzwords like MilSim in order to attract more players, when the only thing above a Rec game they've provided was a two paragraph backstory and maybe a $20 crate they picked up at Joe's Army Navy. I'm not saying I fault them for trying, but there really needs to be criteria met before people just call their games whatever they'd like.
I originally attempted to bring a real "MilSim" to Michigan after I had just gotten out of the Military at Geronimo, and to date everyone that went says it was one of the best events they've attended, to include some who have gone to National events. I attempted to treat every player as I would someone below me in the Military, with actual criteria to hit, proper ways to communicate over the radio, and being able to competently read a grid map. For the most part everyone seemed to grasp it, so we decided to raise the stakes with the medic system at Wounded Wing, and it caused nothing but frustration due to players not having the ability to terrain associate themselves to use grid points, call in birds, or even write down anything I said during the briefing.
MilSim in Michigan is going to either continue to be National guys coming in and taking all the big revenue from majority of us due to past Military ties, or hosts that claim they're doing MilSim when not a single one served in the Military and absolutely nothing resembles anything of the actual "Military" part of the MilSim on field, save for the retardedly expensive gear a few people are going to have.
I suppose a big factor in the game is money as well, along with effort. Why would I put in three times the amount of required effort if at the end of the day I can host three rec games and make the same amount over time? Some hosts also look at it from that perspective, and honestly I don't blame them. As long as the customer base keeps coming out and spending the $10-25 per rec game, I can get to a point where the day is almost on a groundhog day, and the masses are going to love it every time because it gets them out of the house and into the gear.
We (RAGE) have been looking at trying to enter the National level, to be competitive with what they offer without the ridiculous price tag. Presently the only thing in my mind that stands out that they can do that we can't is get these fields. I still can't justify paying $100 more than I would otherwise, because you and I both know an Army base is a government owned piece of dirt, and the only people profiting largely off that are the Officers that agreed to the back door deal, as there is no owner of most of those lands, just base commanders that switch out every few years. A common refute would be to hide that money in made up things like "Hiring Civilian contractors for cleanup" or largely over inflating the already predetermined contracts for porta-potties, to give you a few examples, but I hope MiA recognizes this.
Maybe this is just me saying it from the other side of the fence, but if you want good MilSim to hang around in Michigan, the masses have to support them. That doesn't mean just give out your money, but if the point ever comes where it's been proven time and time again MilSims aren't worth the event hosts time, nor will they bring in enough money to even be able to conduct it, you'll see nothing but rec games soon, and we'll all have to resort to hitting up out of state games saying "Man, I wish they had something like that at home". Opportunity is there.
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Snarf
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Post by Snarf on Jul 22, 2014 16:41:59 GMT -5
FYI I'm going to reference to Michigan as a whole here, but the Metro Detroit area can basically be a proxy for a lot of the airsoft activity in the state, minus Bangor and maybe a few northern fields.
The lower attendance is because new players aren't coming into the sport as fast as the older guys are getting out of it (obviously). If you look at the number of airsoft players in Michigan as a population over time, it would just make sense that less and less people are getting into it, while more and more are leaving. But why?
There's already been quite a bit of discussion as to why the "veterans" are leaving or playing less. The lower rate of new players joining can probably be explained by the fact that airsoft isn't a mainstream sport/hobby, and most people don't even know about it. It could also be the nation's mood on guns and stuff changing, but that's just wild speculation by me.
This is all assuming that there actually is a lower attendance happening. It's kind of hard to quantify, but Kjones if you're going to lots of games and seeing less people compared to past events then that makes sense.
I'm sure more can be said on this, but that's all I can think of for now.
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Post by Gimpalong on Jul 23, 2014 15:09:55 GMT -5
So I actually went and compiled a dataset of games played between 2012 and today (7/23/2014). I haven't really started parsing the data yet, but here are some preliminary findings:
2012-2014 372 Total Events This is all the events posted to the Events thread including those events that were canceled or postponed.
2012-2014 Game Types This was based on the tag in the thread title as well as reading the event description. 20 Milsim 310 Rec 39 Scenario 1 Swap Meet 2 Tournaments
2012-2014 Locations (this is all scheduled events, and does not take into account cancelations) Based on advertised event location. This was sometimes confusing due to Phoenix and ATS having multiple fields. Bangor, 59 events Birch Run, 1 event Cassopolis, 1 event Charlotte, 2 events Clinton Twp, 36 events Clio, 1 event City of Detroit, 1 event Farmington, 20 events Highland, 4 events Holland, 1 event Kalamazoo, 6 events Leonard, 2 events Lowell, 21 events Mancelona, 7 events Oak Park, 1 event Pinckney, 11 events Port Huron (really 28 mile & Gratiot), 40 events Romulus, 10 events Taylor, 21 events Three Rivers, 4 events Trenton, 2 events Warren, 106 events [28.4% of ALL events!] West Branch, 10 events Ypsilanti, 1 event
2012-2014 Game Status This was based on the tag in the event thread title. If an event was canceled, but didn't have a canceled tag in the event title then it was coded as having been "held." Total, 372 Canceled, 29 Held, 334 Postponed, 1 Upcoming, 8
2012-2014 Event Hosts This was based on who was advertised as hosting in the event thread or what team/organization the OP was a part of. Hence the Eastside Airsoft field falls under "RFA" since a poster from RFA was usually the OP for those events. Airsoft of Kalamazoo & Fighting Tacos, 1 Armory Airsoft & Chicago Egg Heads, 1 ATS, 44 [11.8% of ALL events] ATS & Team Omnicide, 1 BTR, 2 Capital City Airsoft, 2 Farmington CQB Staff, 8 FLAK, 56 [15% of ALL events] Hell Survivors staff, 1 Hellfish, 2 Hellfish & SK, 1 Immortal, 1 Impulse, 1 Kalamazoo Airsoft, 3 Matrix Staff & Crew, 10 MIO, 1 NMA, 7 OCAA, 10 OLCMSS, 2 Phoenix Tactical Staff, 49 [13.1% of ALL events] RAGE, 8 RAGE & ATS, 1 RFA, 91 [24.4% of ALL events!] Royal Oak Salvation Army, 2 SABR, 20 [5.3% of ALL events] Savage Souls, 1 SK, 34 [9.1% of ALL events] Tango Down, 1 TC Paintball Staff, 2 Team TRU, 4 Tex, 1 Unknown, 5
Event Fields This was based on the event location and what the event location is typically called. For example, the location in Taylor, MI is usually called "No Limits." The Bangor field is at Hole in the Wall Paintball, etc.
10725 Capital St [Swap Meet location], 1 event Airhouse, 2 events Area 51 Paintball, 7 events ATS Fields [indoor and outdoor], 46 Chaos Paintball [Charlotte field], 2 Crossfire Paintball, 1 Eastside Airsoft, 92 EMF Airsoft Michigan Field, 2 Farmington C.Q.B., 20 Hell Survivors, 10 Hole in the Wall Paintball, 59 Matrix Airsoft, 10 Matrix Airsoft [Original field], 1 McLouth Steel, 2 No Limits, 21 Phoenix [North & South], 49 Pinckney State Rec Area [No AEG milsim training event], 1 Savage Souls Field [Clio], 1 Splatmandu, 4 Tango Down Tactical, 1 The Farm, 4 The Swamp, 10 Unknown [Could not identify field info], 6 WMI/Young's Field, 21
One of the biggest things that strikes me is how many games ATS, FLAK, Eastside and Phoenix Tactical have hosted of which the majority were rec games.
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Post by Ogre on Jul 23, 2014 16:15:57 GMT -5
Jesus, have I really hosted 10 events already? It doesn't seem like it.
That's an impressive told for events though, like what one event every 3 or so days roughly?
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Post by Gimpalong on Jul 23, 2014 18:33:16 GMT -5
Ogre, If I recall correctly, the ten count for the OCAA also includes two events that were advertised and later canceled. I`m on my phone now, but I will host the raw data tomorrow for people who want to do analysis themselves. Edit: LINK for raw data.
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