Full Seal Question

[Ogre]

Putting this in the Newbie section because this is kind of a noob question even though I've been here for 3 years.

Now I have seen several videos, most notably of Jet DesertFox, playing at major Milsims like American Milsim and Lions Claw games, with shooting glasses. Being that these games are normally more anal with rules than we are, I was wondering if what he runs constitutes as full seal per MiA standards. In this picture you see him wearing shooting glasses, along with a mesh lower face mask and helmet. I understand full seal eye protection must form a full seal around the eye's and can't be shot off, etc. The helmet definitively helps keep them on and prevents them from being shot off from behind, and there is a foam seal around the top of the glasses. What brings it into question for me is that these are in fact shooting glasses that are not allowed at MiA events, and there is a small gap near the bottom of the eye that is not covered by the mesh mask, however that area is smaller than most vents on goggles are. Honestly it looks like a decent set up and something I might run in the future when I invest in a helmet.

Example pictures

[Knief]

No, those are not full seal and events that allow the use of shooting glasses such as those may not be posted here on MiA.

When you have hard plastic on one side of the gap and soft tissue on the other side of the gap, you give the bb an opportunity to push through. Your skin is pliable and a bb will drive it out of the way to continue on its trajectory, getting into the shooting glasses. That's diffe
rent than a vent in goggles where the physical size of the hole and structure of the material won't allow for a gap larger than 6mm. It's not about the size of the hole when it's just sitting on your face, it's about the possibility that a bb could be pushed through. That can happen much easier with shooting glasses than it can when eyepro has a soft gasket to form to your face and an elastic band that will keep it tight. Both of those things are a requirement for full seal eye protection.

[edit] Those games are definitely not more anal with rules than we are. Come down to one of Mosin's or Pagan's games, you'll get a sense of how safety rules like eyepro and engagement limits are addressed. There's nothing loose about it, which is how it should be. When you slack on that stuff, you get problems like Futureball has.

[Ogre]

Alright, thanks for clearing that up. Apparently American Milsim is more lax on their rules than I though.

May 28, 2014 7:07:01 GMT -5 Knief said:

Those games are definitely not more anal with rules than we are. Come down to one of Mosin's or Pagan's games, you'll get a sense of how safety rules like eyepro and engagement limits are addressed. There's nothing loose about it, which is how it should be. When you slack on that stuff, you get problems like Futureball has.

It's not that I was saying I would Allow it, It's just that you would think National level games would be more inclined to enforce rules that have been in place in airsoft across the country for the better part of a decade. It just bothers me that so many new airsofters look up to youtubers like Jet and Level Cap and they frequently get around full seal regulations. It bothers me more that the people at American Milsim okay'd that set up if it doesn't constitute as full seal.

[Knief]

You would think that, but there are always going to be organizations that value admission fees over player safety. It sucks, but that's how it goes.

[Mosin]

When I was in California, playing at "Rogue fields" (areas in the remote hills) was a common occurrence, along with more relaxed eye protection standards like anything Oakley or ESS was automatically good to go, and even that wasn't hardly enforced (Players had to have something, but you could tell non ballistic glasses were being worn in pictures). I've personally played a few of these and I'm still able to see just fine, although I wouldn't advocate it and for insurance reasons I would never promote it.

When I first started out snipers were allowed to use mesh goggles as we typically had our heads down and were usually the furthest away from anyone, which was a very strong appeal. It was then proven by some guy that used medium grade bb's full auto at close range that little pieces of fragmented dust & pieces can splinter off and pass through, which led to that ban. I'd be interested to see that revisited, although I know he was only factoring for the lowest common denominator, as not everyone is going to be slinging high grade stuff.

I'd also be interested in a test on this setup from being placed on a mannequin head with a strap and getting lit up from all 360 degrees possible and seeing what would really happen.

I know it's just recently hit that Oakey M-Frames w/ Helo kits are now good to go, but if you look at the M Frame 2.0's with a helo kit there is actually a sizeable gap between the actual helo kit and the frame, comparable to Bolle T500's(800's?) on the top portion, which is typically covered by a helmet anyways, but for the sake of the argument, is just as exposed.

I only know of three insurance companies that offer protection for paintball and airsoft, and only one of them says full seal at MINIMUM for ages 18+. The simple truth is that American MilSim and Lion Claw's have just been lucky, all it will take is one full auto from a guy up in the rafters of a building down below and some crazy angles to occur before you're looking at a lawsuit and a severe crackdown.

[Ogre]

I remember that mesh mask discussion, first stickie I ever read.

As far as the eye pro in CA goes, I guess Jets set up isn't as much as a Taboo their so he runs it whenever he can. Actually sent him a message to get his opinion on this discussion. Hasn't messaged me back yet. If you are going to do a test I'd like to see the results and your conclusion.

[Krutch]

I was at a Blacksheep operation about two years ago, and there were loads of people wearing safety glasses. Had my team on edge. Sure the chances are low, but no one wants to shoot someone's eye out.

[Mosin]

May 29, 2014 17:56:15 GMT -5 Ogre said:

If you are going to do a test I'd like to see the results and your conclusion.

I lack a mannequin head and regardless of the findings it still boils down to the fact that insurance companies are looking to get away with more and more, and are trying to avoid and any all potential risks. It costs about $2,400 a year (Minimum) to maintain up to 2 mil insurance on a field that runs about 400 players through a Month, and that estimate was given to me after I filled out an 18 page questionnaire to include night shooting, full seal only vs. paintball mask, age restrictions, fps limits, full auto vs. semi auto only, does the field have paintball nets around it, and 100 other fun questions.

Although even that being as cheap as it is, would have still required an insurance agent come out and verify what I said was true, and sign off on the final estimate before I could even start hosting on my own. Another fun fact is that when you host on someone else's field your event is not covered under their insurance unless your name is on the title of insurance as well. Obviously not a huge deal as if someone went south the event hosts would just step back and let the field owners handle things, as that's what majority of us pay them for in the first place.

Even waivers can be broken, danced around, or sometimes dismissed in a lawsuit. The simple truth is just maintaining overall concern of safety will more than likely result in an overall safe day of airsoft. Proper chrono checks of all guns on field with appropriate tagging, checks of eye pro before players enter on field, and in field moderation is key. When kids start to disregard that and standards allow for safety glasses and maybe only chrono the first 50 guns and then we run out of zip ties and say oh well, we fast forward one year and those safety glasses slip from being ballistic to being the cheap plastic ones that come with $10 spring pistols, and someone who isn't registered on MiA and lacks respect for the rules sneaks in a bb gun. I've seen multiple chipped teeth, bloodied up ears, and a few close calls on other areas of the body, but thankfully nobody has gone blind because of an airsoft gun since I've started playing, which can only be chalked up to general awareness of safety and enforcing standards.

If I were at a Veteran airsofter only event of maybe a 20 v 20 in a wooded area with small buildings and towers, I'd be comfortable with wearing just my m-frames without the full seal gasket, as the older players tend to lose the need to have the 40rps full auto hero M4 on a high cap and tend to focus more on the fundamentals of the sport like strategy and general tactics, and nobody really aims for the face.