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Post by Alex-(BM_5) on Feb 4, 2012 22:20:54 GMT -5
So long story short I saw a few gbbr's today and now I want one, the problem is I don't know anything about gbb brands. What brands should I look for and what should I stay away from.
Basic information that I have gotten is many WE's have problems with key parts in their designs causing them to fail very very quickly, Many people seem to love the kjw m4 but others hate it due to a lack of power, and WA gbbr's are a shot in the dark.
Before it comes up I have been putting some research time into this but it seems everyone who has something to say about it has only had one GBBR or they are sponsored by a company.
Also I know Inokatsu is the top top top brand but at 1200 dollars I don't think I'll be buying one.
Edit: For clarification I am not looking for people to tell me which gun to get I am asking specifically about the brands and how well they preform in general, how good the QC is and lemon rate, etc...
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Post by TheFamily32 on Feb 4, 2012 22:57:58 GMT -5
Kings Arm M4 is pretty good cost $330 I love mine! The mags only cost 40 bucks a piece which is the cheapest on the market
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Post by Thor on Feb 4, 2012 23:06:03 GMT -5
Western Arms type GBB's are pretty much a joke. The mags suck, the whole mechanism sucks. Everyone I've known who bought a WA-based GBBR ended up getting rid of it because they're just money pits.
KJW appears to be the most reliable from the anecdotal evidence I've seen, as well as talking to some people that have owned them.
WE I haven't heard much praise about theirs, so take that for what you will.
And as far as Inokatsu, I don't think I've seen anyone who's plunked down PTW money for a GBBR, so I can't say anything one way or the other.
Honestly from everything I've seen/heard if you were dead set on getting a GBBR, get a KJW.
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Post by Alex-(BM_5) on Feb 4, 2012 23:08:58 GMT -5
Thank you thor, if I remember correctly miles was selling an Inokatsu a little while back. Also who are the rebranders of the GBBR world?
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Post by racingmaniac on Feb 4, 2012 23:20:22 GMT -5
Foreword: Any GBBR will have problem. They are expensive to own and run, mags costs more, mags are heavy, needs more maintenance, and internals have finite life that might be more finite than AEGs. They require you to game it differently than any AEG. They are however, a million times more fun to shoot...
For AR platform, there are currently 5 "systems" for gas-in-mag style GBBR. Western Arms, WE, KJW/Tanio Koba, KSC/KWA, and VFC. All 5 system shares no mags and no internal(trigger group mainly is what I am referring to), all 4 has some degree of compatibility with real steel parts.
For WA, there are many brands that makes GBBR based on this system, between them they are not necessarily compatible aside from mag. The original is the Western Arm. Much like their pistol, they are plastic body, pot metal internal, and made in Japan. The gun is primarily designed to run duster gas. Doing so probably will be quite reliable. The dimension of the WA gun is slightly shorter than the RS gun, mainly between the front and rear take down pins. Which means they are not compatible with RS receiver, charging handle...etc. WA also makes mag for this system. They have several different type and some are more suited for propane use than others, and some allows you to shoot with the mag past horizontal(like their pistol), cheaper ones don't. G&P makes the "WOC", or Western Arms Official Custom. WOC is like regular WA but all the parts are now metal. Cast aluminum body, steel internal, pot metal bolt carrier, plastic bolt. Most of the RIS, furniture...etc are the same as their AEG. WOC also share the non-RS dimension as the WA. G&P also makes mag, they are primarily clone of the standard WA mags, they also make their own "P Mag", although in this case they are not like the real P Mag, in that they are not made of Polymer...Inokatsu is also a WA system gun. They are different in some key area. First and foremost, the gun is RS dimension, take down pin distance is the same as real AR. They can take modified RS upper receiver and other RS parts. Inokatsu's selling point is that they have followed RS' construction method. Forged aluminum receiver, steel bolt, realistic marking...etc. HOWEVER, they are not necessarily the best shooting gun. Now they are probably quite decent out of the box, though it took them 3-4 revisions to get here. Inokatsu does not make mags, so you have to use other brand's WA system mags. A bunch of Chinese clone brands also exist in this system, all mostly full metal and are likely to be cheaper than G&P. However due to the stresses seen in these guns, their life expectancy is not great...
Because of the proliferation of the WA system(mainly by being the first on market), there are parts galore for the platform, so much so that you can essentially build a WA platform gun from scratch without a base gun. They can cost as much or much more than a real AR....The draw for the WA also is their realistic construction. The assembly process is quite close to a real gun, and they look the part. The biggest problem though is mags. There are literally dozens of make for the mag, and all have some issue or another. All are quite costly and heavy. Some mags work in some bodies better than others, and some mags are more susceptible to leak than others. Be prepare to try different brand to find ones that works for you in the end....
WE is another system thats rapidly taking chunk of the market. They are generally cheaper, and new ones keep coming out(not just AR also). WE have gone through some evolution, their older system is commonly referred to as "closed bolt", and the newer one as "open bolt". Not to be confused with the real steel's use of the term. All WE fires from bolt closed position....The difference being the old system has a brass tube that is visible when the charging handle pulled back, the new system does not. The reason for the latter is because the player complained about the lack of realism from a look stand point with the brass tube....The 2 system do not share mag. I am not certain if WE makes both still...Most of their newer guns are only in open bolt system. WE uses their proprietary trigger box design that is not designed to resemble the look of the RS ones. There are some small bits that tend to break on stock gun. But there are now many brands that makes CNC steel replacement bits that will upgrade the reliability of these guns. There are also available aftermarket body that replace the stock metal body with ones with marking, and CNC quality external. WE are also compatible with RS upper receiver as well as other RS parts...WE mags are slightly cheaper, though still have leak issue and you are expect to maintain(or replace them)....
KJW/Tanio Koba is probably not as popular in the grand scheme of things. But people who like them really like them. I have not seen one myself, but their reputation is that they are the most reliable system. However they also don't have as much aftermarket support. Aside from that, another down side is the unrealistic construction and limited RS compatibility. I am sure someone else can fill in on this....
KSC/KWA system is the newest for AR GBBR. They are conceptually similar to WA in that they mimic the RS in many aspect of its design, which is different to WE/KJW's approach. Metal body, pot metal internal. I am not sure how easy it is to get a KSC here, as KWA, which shares the design, went through the trouble of getting some kind of ATF approval for their M4. The system is still quite new, not as much parts are available for it yet. And they seem to have the heaviest mag. However if you have owned a KSC/KWA gun before, you know their mags don't usually leak, and are quite happy to run propane....
VFC also have now come out with their AR GBBR, which is best described as a modified WA system, enough that its not compatible. Again, metal body, pot metal internal. They have a reputation currently as having fragile inner bits. But because its primary market was in Taiwan, there are now pretty good support for replacement parts. Since VFC have paid Umarex for licensing, you can also get ther HK416 with HK marking in US....not sure about how good their mags are....
Outside of AR there are other guns in GBBR too....AKs, G36s, MP5s, M14s...etc...with even more brand...
I have myself own/owned a WOC, a scratch build WA-based gun, a KSC MP7(sorta a GBBR), a GHK AKM.
My WA gun aside from mags(still searching for that good mag) are pretty reliable, scratch built one more so than WOC. However it is "PTW money". I love the KSC MP7, but recently sold it due to lack of use. Very reliable and fun. GHK AKM is fun too, kicks even harder than WA with all steel bit. Pot metal internal seems to be fine thus far. Mag leaks, but are relatively easy to take apart and fix down the line.....
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Post by Ike on Feb 4, 2012 23:22:58 GMT -5
I didn't see any GBBRs today. There were some Polarstars, which is probably what you're referring to. They're miles ahead of GBBRs in performance, right up there with AEGs. They're extremely well built and are easy to adjust settings for on the fly. And best of all, they don't lose performance in the cold like GBBRs. If you can afford the initial cost of the system and an air rig, they're an amazing platform for pretty much any build.
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Post by Alex-(BM_5) on Feb 4, 2012 23:28:25 GMT -5
Nah there were a few (maybe just 1) GBBR, the problem I have with p*'s is first of all the price and second of all I don't like having to run tubing for my gun to work
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Blitz
New Member
Posts: 137
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Post by Blitz on Feb 5, 2012 1:20:11 GMT -5
You can run the tubing through your MOLLE or sleeve of your shirt if you're worried about it snagging. If it's the bulk of the air tank, it only takes up about as much space as a hydration bladder.
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Post by Alex-(BM_5) on Feb 5, 2012 12:07:20 GMT -5
The main problem is it ruins the realism for me to see tubing running. I have been looking around and a kjw caught my eye(kc-02) and then I came across something that poses a problem I saw a few brands that were thought to be rebrands, do people rebrand GBBR's? Also what is npas, I watched a video and it explained how it works but I don't understand what it actually does.
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Post by racingmaniac on Feb 5, 2012 15:45:02 GMT -5
WA GBBR, like their pistol, runs on positive pressure gas system. There is a flute valve in the nozzle that actually gets pressed back by the BB when the bolt is in battery. When you depress the trigger, the striker hits the valve and the gas comes out, pushed the BB down the barrel. When the BB leaves the nozzle, the gas pushes the flute valve shut and the gas is redirected to blow back and moves the bolt back, chambers the next round, and the process repeat. It works fine for pistol in most cases, as the cyclic rate is not as high, and because most of the gas is used for blow back as soon as the BB leaves the nozzle tip, thats why WA gun tend to have really good kick. The downside is that at higher cyclic rate, the valve might not sit the same everytime, and you get inconsistent power between shots. You can tune this, but its tricky. The fact that we tend to use higher pressure gas outside of Japan also further increase the cyclic rate and all this plays havoc with the original design. This is different from most GBB's operation, which functions by the Negative Pressure (RA-Tech coined it Negative Pressure Air System, or NPAS). In a NPAS system(TM, KSC, WE...etc), The flute valve is open by default with or without the BB sitting there. When the trigger is pressed, the gas goes to the BB, between the BB and the flute valve, as long as the BB is in the barrel, the barrel pressure is positive, and flute valve remains open, as soon as the BB leaves the barrel, the pressure in the barrel drops, and the flute valve spring is overpowered by the partial vacuum in the barrel, and "pulls" the flute valve close, redirects the gas towards blow back. When the bolt cycles and trips the striker reset, the gas shuts off, the spring re opens the flute valve, and ready for the next shot. This is more consistent as the gas will remain supplied to the barrel to push the BB as long as the BB is still in the barrel, regardless if the barrel is long, short, BB is heavy or light. The downside is this system tend to be less efficient, and more prone to cool down...
The additional gimmick that the NPAS sold by RA-Tech is that they can adjust the preload of the flute valve spring, which will adjust the timing when the flute valve closes, which allows you to tune for power(later closing) or blowback(earlier closing)...All of the GBBR on the market except WA runs on negative pressure based design. RA-Tech/G&P and some others makes conversion kit(basically a new flute valve and spring, that changes the order between the flute valve and the spring) that changes the operating system of the WA GBBR. Some WA-system based gun now comes with negative pressure based gun stock. RA-Tech also sells NPAS for other brands' gun by adding the power adjustment to them. This is helpful as most GBBR shoots quite hot for indoor field..
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Post by M.S.-ARC on Feb 5, 2012 16:12:03 GMT -5
If you want an M4 GBB, there is only one currently in the market that is worth getting.
Get the KJW/Tanio Koba. There are no other options.
It's very reliable, very loud, very realistic. It's as close to real as you can get. The mags do not leak. The gun is good to go right out of the box. The only thing I would recommend to add are the cradle parts and once you have that, you can set your fps to suit your needs.
The only issue is mags are currently hard to find in stock anywhere in the US.
I bought an M4 at the end of last summer. I loved it so much that just a few weeks ago I bought another one. If anyone wants a first hand experience with them, you are more than welcome to shoot mine. After that, you will be hooked.
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Post by Alex-(BM_5) on Feb 5, 2012 16:43:00 GMT -5
I'm not to sure of what model of gun I want at the moment, I have been looking at the kjw kc-02 though. Also thanks for the explanation of npas.
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Post by Psychosis on Feb 6, 2012 15:17:21 GMT -5
Does KJW offer Stanag-style magazines? I'm almost sold on the realism and its ability to be used right out of the box, but the thermold-style magazines are a huge turnoff.
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Post by M.S.-ARC on Feb 6, 2012 16:11:25 GMT -5
Unfortunately not. I don't like the current mags either but you get used to it. Word on the street is that a standard M4 mag is coming.
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Post by Overkill on Feb 6, 2012 19:42:10 GMT -5
I don't know what KWA uses in their rifles, but their MP7A1 has been amazing so far. It has been reliable and is so simple to clean and maintain that its a wonder I haven't seen more of them. There are several KWA and third party aftermarket parts (although its quite a $$$ sink if you are a min/max enthusiast) to get it on a level to compete with an AEG as a field gun or GBBR's in terms of capable range. The upgrades do exist however. From what I've seen you get a nice ROF, 48 rd magazines, 400 FPS easy (yes, FPS isn't everything but its scary easy to ramp it up on this gun, be careful if you try!) , and various barrel lengths and diameters. I can't speak for any kind of accuracy at long range though, given the gun is designed to be a close quarters smg.
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