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Post by rodrick on Sept 26, 2011 22:12:41 GMT -5
This is an interesting video I found on Youtube. It not only shows a WE gun working in the snow (Specifically 20 degrees F) but also being submerged in snow.
I don't claim to be an expert on anything GBBR related, but this is interesting evidence that WE may have done something right at least in their G39 series, which I have heard many good things from. This also shows how GBB in general may be better suited for colder weather than people give them credit.
However, the video does NOT show how well it shoots in accuracy or FPS, but to me, it shows that at the VERY LEAST they may work in such conditions.
Disregarding the magazine capacity, I can see in some areas where GBBRs may out class AEGs, for example, they may be more hardy than most. Now, I don't want to compare a WE to a VFC or ARES, but if you look at an AEG gearbox, there is a lot going on, and if one thing gets out of whack, one may have a lot of work ahead of him or her.
GBBR, to my understanding, don't have as many mechanisms driving the BB out, having less margin for error, and usually are made of 'metal' (Not saying quality metal or pot metal, just in general). This could provide an easier clean up and less long term harm after, say, a heavy down pour during a game or if one wanted to go SEAL on the other team and swim into their base.
I am not trying to convert anyone to using GBBRs only, or say they are 'the bomb' but just put my thoughts forward and see how wrong I am about everything.
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Post by TheEnd on Sept 27, 2011 14:39:05 GMT -5
Did he say how long he left it out there for? It looked like the snow was melting off the body at one point which makes me think he only buried it for a few minutes. Leave it out there overnight and re run the test.
The biggest reason that test proves nothing is that just because the bolt cycles, it doesn't mean the shot is worth a damn. Yeah it cycled the bolt but if the shot only went 30 feet it won't do you any good. Any type of gas pistol, rifle, or SMG will cycle the bolt/slide when cold. The hard part is having a system that will make use of those shots.
Second, the first shots sounded decent, but as he ran more gas through it that bolt sounded slow and in the end the 2nd mag didn't even fire every round. I do understand it would have done better in semi-auto, but that test showed a GBBR failing to fire 30 rounds. In semi auto it might have fired 20 a decent distance, but the last 10 might have been 30' fallers. Unless someone does the test again we won't know for sure. But the argument is "will this rifle fire 30 rounds if cold", and that doesn't sound like a platform I want to skirmish with.
If the internals are made of pot metal (the WE M4's were) they will become very brittle in that cold. Long term use in the cold could lead to something breaking. Not to mention the rubber components are most llikely going to freeze. Ever watched someone blow all the gas out of their pistol mag by pushing the firing valve? Notice how frozen the gas routing gets? Imagine it doing that in 20 degree weather. It will crack and break pretty easily.
AEG gear boxes are actually pretty simple. Not including the motor they only have about 12 moving parts. When properly assembled the system can last a very long time. Most gear box failures are from either poorly made parts failing, or poor assembly. It's hard to beat a properly built AEG.
Most of the problems GBBR's have are based on the science that drives them, and the shitty materials they are made from.
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Post by flakrabbit on Oct 11, 2011 10:18:52 GMT -5
I know they use GBBR’s all year in Scotland. Yes there performance is much less impressive but they still work, and work well enough to use. As long as the gas expands at a consistent rate you get consistent shots. If I may expound on the nature of GBB’s for a moment, I’m reluctant to call them Gas Blow Back rifle’s because there’s no rifling, but I guess GBB Smooth Bore Blaster doesn’t have the same ring. Please take not that I’m not trying to tell you that GBB’s are the only way to go. I do enjoy using a GBB but I still have an AEG actually I have several. There is a lot going on when you pull the trigger on an AEG and there’s a lot that can go wrong, but there still the most reliable system available.
An AEG beats a GBB in terms of consistency of velocity, ROF, cost of operation. Everything except realism, When I say realism I’m not just talking about the blow back. I’m talking about ammo capacity, trigger response, method of operation, mechanical failures and jams even that most beloved of the gun owners experience, striping down and cleaning up.
But it’s not the same when you play with a GBB. The experience is different, how you play is different. We always pride ourselves and joke about using tactics and how the other team wouldn’t know a left flank from a HALO insertion when in actuality it’s all just fire superiority. Everyone’s a SAW gunner even in mil-sim. Play with a GBBr and you suddenly become acutely aware of how little ammo you have. And how you should get closer and out flak that position instead of expending (all) 400 rounds at them from where you are. And of how important your team has suddenly become to your effectiveness. Yes you can simply take away the ammo from an AEG and you get the same results. But in my opinion the experience is not the same.
I would like to see a surge in the popularity of GBB’s I think a GBB only game would redefine Mil-sim. But GBB’s are expensive to operate and maintain and that will turn off many who find an AEG more to their style. Which is fine some of the most fun I’ve had airsofting has been at rec games. In the end it’s all about what you’re after. Are you after a laid-back day of airsofting or are you after a day of training? And I mean no disrespect to combat veterans I’ve meet and know several. But we like to think that there’s a lot of training that goes on before your thrust in combat and it tells you how to survive, but in the words of my Papaw a WW2 vet, God rest his soul “They don’t teach you nothin’ about stayin’ alive. You gota’ learn that yourself, and fast before you’re the one standing in front of your maker.”
The motions and mechanics of airsoft are the same as combat, with one big exception. Nobody dies. And with that we can learn from our mistakes and become a better airsofter. And in doing so, we also increase our potential to be better fighter against enemies both foreign and domestic. Because this is America it’s how we can to be a nation. There’s a reason China doesn’t allow it’s citizens to you to play airsoft.
WOW, I managed to get way of topic with my ranting, but still it was a good ten minutes of typing and I hate to put it to waist.
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Post by trustkill on Oct 11, 2011 10:39:40 GMT -5
I'll stress test my kjw for you guys this winter. I've used it in 30-40 degree weather and it functioned exceptionally well. But the science behind it will predict the outcome of overnight stays in the snow.
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Post by Gunny87 on Oct 11, 2011 10:39:55 GMT -5
I'm really tempted in buying a WE G39 GBBR. Still wouldn't use one in colder temps, but considering that they are affordable and work as well as they do has tempted me in getting one ever since WE released them.
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Post by Knief on Oct 11, 2011 12:15:57 GMT -5
Does anybody know or have the temperature vs. pressure curve on the evaporation point of propane? It must exist somewhere. That's really what it comes down to, the chemistry and physics behind evaporation pressure at a given ambient temperature. The colder it is, the lower the evaporation pressure. The lower the pressure, the weaker the shot and the slower the cycle. If you know what pressure gives you what velocity, and you have the temperature vs. pressure curve of a gas, then you'll know about what the gun shoots at what temperature, and when it becomes less than viable.
You also have to take cool down into effect, but that's a whole different ball of wax, and not something that I know how to calculate or even talk about calculating. What I do know is that the larger your reservoir, the less you experience cool down. Conversely, the more gas your gun releases per shot, the more you experience cool down. And similarly, the more successive shots you fire, the more you experience cool down. What does this mean for GBBRs? Some combination of things. Large reservoirs are a (+). Full auto capable is a (-) (if you're using full auto, of course). And my assumption, which is only that, is that most GBBRs use more gas to fire than most gas pistols, based only on their need to fill a larger barrel to push the bb. In the same way you need a cylinder with a larger volume to accommodate a long barrel in an AEG compared to a short barrel, you would need more gas expansion to push a bb all the way out of the 14.5inch barrel of an M4 compared to the 5inch barrel of a 1911. That would be a (-) if my assumption is correct (who knows if it is?)
What does all that actually show? A muddled mess. Without know how much each determining factor actually affects cool down in a quantitative (or at least comparative) way, or without a chemical engineer/physicist who wants to dig deeper than I can, the theoretical points remain theoretical. The best way to tell would be for somebody who owns or has access to a few GBB rifles and GBB pistols to run some tests on a chrono. Any takers?
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Post by trustkill on Oct 11, 2011 13:47:02 GMT -5
I'll be doing one with my kjw. Don't have any other gbb/r for comparison
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Post by Knief on Oct 11, 2011 13:55:36 GMT -5
Can you at least run it up against some pistols on the same gas at the same ambient temperature? It would probably be really enlightening.
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Post by trustkill on Oct 11, 2011 21:31:04 GMT -5
So now that I have had time to watch the video... What was the point in burying the gun in the snow? Why not just bury your magazines which is where your propellant is being held? Why not bury the propellant as well?
Poo test is poo.
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Post by TheEnd on Oct 12, 2011 17:48:41 GMT -5
What was the point in burying the gun in the snow? Cold hop up bucking and cold thick grease or oil in any of the internals. Although like I stated before it doesn't look like he left it out very long.
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Post by Dallas on Oct 17, 2011 9:01:31 GMT -5
It looks like he only let it sit for about ten minutes. The snow is melting off, so it was obviously fresh from the inside of the house and only left in the snow for a little while. If he did leave it out for a good amount of time, there's no proof of it. You can't see how far the BBs go, and that's really the main thing that is hampered by a cold GBB.
I've conducted a test like this, except on a paintball gun.
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Post by Mles on Oct 17, 2011 13:37:13 GMT -5
You can't see how far the BBs go, and that's really the main thing that is hampered by a cold GBB. What? The weather affects far more than how far the BBs go.
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Post by Dallas on Oct 17, 2011 14:25:02 GMT -5
You can't see how far the BBs go, and that's really the main thing that is hampered by a cold GBB. What? The weather affects far more than how far the BBs go. I know that that is the main cause, but cold gas isn't as effective as warm gas and shortens the range. If you put a cold GBB against a warm GBB in a sterile environment the cold one won't shoot as far. If we can see where the BBs land in terms of distance, that would help in knowing if this was a properly executed test. Warm gas shoots further than cold gas. A side by side comparison would show how far it actually shoots, which he isn't able to give unlike with paintball. If he had colored BBs, that might help.
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Post by Mles on Oct 17, 2011 21:23:37 GMT -5
Not necessarily, you can still range the same in a cold environment. There are too many variables that temperature changes. You can still get the same power, but it will be less efficient.
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Post by Knief on Oct 17, 2011 21:51:37 GMT -5
Miles, splain how. The evaporation pressure drops as the ambient temperature drives the temperature of the gas down. That pressure is directly correlated to FPS. Lower gas temperature means lower FPS. This is gas 101. So please, explain how that may not be the case? This is all in an unregulated system, what we use in airsoft. With a regulated system as in paintball, your pressure just needs to stay above whatever pressure your regulator allows. But since we don't use regulators (mostly), that's not really an issue.
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