Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 19, 2010 18:45:15 GMT -5
This is For UTG L96 use upgrades I am suggesting at your own risk You could get a UTG L96 and upgrade the shit out of it. There is an upgrade guide on this forum. miairsoft.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=spring&action=display&thread=33470 And it shouldn't cost you more than $500's to make a sniper worth using on the field. Just buy the UTG upgrade kit, pdi hop-up, AEG TBB, make barrel spacers, and buy High quality cylinder grease. For me I have an upgraded well MB05 and when I'm having a good day it is very effective. I don't even use the PDI hop-up and TBB, I kept those stock. If you install the utg upgrade kit right you can get 530fps with a stock barrel and with a better hop-up and tighter bore barrel you should be able to get around the 550fps range and be very accurate and out-range any AEG that conforms to MIA regulation. If you go with just the UTG upgrade kit for the cylinder parts and get a 6.03 barrel with the PDI hop-up it should easily be around $250-$300 and still perform great, but the gun body will feel a little like a toy. And a lot of AEG users that never got into sniping don't know squat about how it is played. It isn't just about the gun it is more about your tactics and how you move and conceal yourself on the field. If you don't have a sniper rifle that costs $1000 dollars or even $500 it still doesn't mean that you can't be effective at playing the role. You can upgrade any spring rifle without spending an extra $500 dollars in parts. the $1000 dollar rifles aren't spring they are gas powered or 600+fps spring guns anyway, and you won't see the latter in any MIA limits field.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 19, 2010 19:24:35 GMT -5
I believe he has made up his mind with the m14. For his situation, I think he should go with the m14 too. Going with any bolt action is going to cost a lot right from the start if you want it to perform well. With the m14 aeg, he can slowly upgrade overtime without losing much performance. While the m14 wont be super awesome out of the box (or with a few minor upgrades) he will still have semi auto which will offer a better advantage over a limited bolt action rifle which is expensive to upgrade.
While both vamp's advice will only cost around $250, I still say go m14. Just seems like a good solid aeg will give him a good taste of the game of airsoft.
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Post by aaron96 on Jul 19, 2010 21:26:01 GMT -5
I would say yes to the L96 but I'm not comfortable putting in more than 3 or 4 upgrades and the full auto ability seems appealing so I can put way more rounds near target. Third of all I am not to good with the sniper role because I like to be near teammates not alone In the woods terrified. Finally I'm only 14 so I'm not that good at doing all of the maintenance a highly upgraded sniper would mean. Also I have already had 1 bad experience with an UTG gun. I have basically made up my mind. If you have any upgrade suggestions for a G&G M14 I have a post in the aeg section.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 19, 2010 21:29:15 GMT -5
Sounds good, you are making a mature choice. You understand that the sniper role is not for you, and instead of saying "o I need a super awesome gun that shoots really far thats really cheap!", you decide to go with an aeg. Plus 1 my friend
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 19, 2010 23:26:37 GMT -5
The sniper role is difficult and expensive so it would be a good choice for you to get the M14. But, if you ever wanted to get into sniping an M14 would be a good rifle to use. You will still be able to make it a DMR if ever want to. It is a good choice for you. And I have looked into going into a M21 EBR project so I think I could point you in the right direction for a DMR upgrade path, so I might make a post on your new thread.
But if the only brocken part on your rifle is the trigger box you can easily fix it with a replacement trigger box, or you can replace the sears. It seems like a common problem with that type of rifle.
Good Luck and I hope you enjoy the sport well into the future.
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Post by triggs on Jul 20, 2010 18:35:37 GMT -5
Given the amount of information, you obviously have extremely limited knowledge of what you are trying to recommend. But if the only brocken part on your rifle is the trigger box you can easily fix it with a replacement trigger box, or you can replace the sears. It seems like a common problem with that type of rifle. A bolt action sniper rifle trigger sears fail for one reason: Stress placed on them by the tension of the spring used in creating the high FPS. The higher the FPS the faster a sear fails, this is in part due to the materials used in cheap UTG/JG/WELL/Warrior 1/Echo 1/etc sniper rifles. Their main selling point is the unneeded high FPS (450FPS+). This high FPS leads to increased wear on the trigger sears, and due the materials, these fail much faster than the quality parts (such as Laylax/PDI/etc). You could get a UTG L96 and upgrade the shit out of it. There is an upgrade guide on this forum. miairsoft.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=spring&action=display&thread=33470 And it shouldn't cost you more than $500's to make a sniper worth using on the field. Just buy the UTG upgrade kit, pdi hop-up, AEG TBB, make barrel spacers, and buy High quality cylinder grease. For me I have an upgraded well MB05 and when I'm having a good day it is very effective. I don't even use the PDI hop-up and TBB, I kept those stock. If you install the utg upgrade kit right you can get 530fps with a stock barrel and with a better hop-up and tighter bore barrel you should be able to get around the 550fps range and be very accurate and out-range any AEG that conforms to MIA regulation. If you go with just the UTG upgrade kit for the cylinder parts and get a 6.03 barrel with the PDI hop-up it should easily be around $250-$300 and still perform great, but the gun body will feel a little like a toy. What I like most about your suggestions is that you suggest replacing UTG junk parts with UTG parts. Not better quality parts, just higher FPS parts. FPS does not equal accuracy. And no, you will not be able to outrange "any" AEG. I know for a fact of many AEG's that can match even the best sniper rifles on these boards. I can think of 3 right off the top of my head, Koulaid's G3, Warpig's SL8, my SL8 are all serious contenders to even the best sniper rifles such as Livonia, Roman's and a few others. And a lot of AEG users that never got into sniping don't know squat about how it is played. It isn't just about the gun it is more about your tactics and how you move and conceal yourself on the field. If you don't have a sniper rifle that costs $1000 dollars or even $500 it still doesn't mean that you can't be effective at playing the role. You can upgrade any spring rifle without spending an extra $500 dollars in parts. the $1000 dollar rifles aren't spring they are gas powered or 600+fps spring guns anyway, and you won't see the latter in any MIA limits field. Wrong again, there are many spring sniper rifles that are within the MIA field limits. To be an effective sniper you must be able actually hit what you are aiming at, while exceeding the range of a normal infantry member otherwise you're just an infantry with a bolt action. The price of an effective sniper rifle will always exceed that of a normal AEG, and much less easily $900-$1000. Why? Because while a AEG can be spray 'n pray and lobbing rounds, a sniper has only realistically two chances of hitting his target without giving his position away and receiving the spray 'n pray method. This means the rifle must be highly accurate and/or extremely long range. The upgrades required to accomplish such a task will always cost you more. And before it's brought up again, NO UTG does NOT make quality upgrade parts. They are simply cheap replacements for cheap parts. They are not quality replacements for weaker parts. A MIA field legal sniper rifle can have an effective range of around 300ft. It is perfectly plausible to also have a AEG that is MIA field legal that can also hit these ranges. I would know, I own one. The sniper role is difficult and expensive so it would be a good choice for you to get the M14. But, if you ever wanted to get into sniping an M14 would be a good rifle to use. You will still be able to make it a DMR if ever want to. It is a good choice for you. And I have looked into going into a M21 EBR project so I think I could point you in the right direction for a DMR upgrade path, so I might make a post on your new thread. On a side note: THINKING you know what to suggest is a dangerous position. KNOWING what to suggest is not. If you THINK you know what is good, chances are you're on a "good" bandwagon. If you do not have any understanding of what you are recommending you are merely recommending whatever you can pull from the internet. This is NOT the sort of thought process someone giving advice should hold.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 20, 2010 18:49:31 GMT -5
Triggs, great post. You brought up some really key points. I feel that by buying that little utg cylinder package, is just UTG getting those little kiddies to purchase some shitty parts, just so they can make a few extra bucks. Think about it, the rifle already has a hard enough time holding up on 500 fps. To stick in a 550 fps spring without upgrading to solid cylinder parts, let alone any sears or new trigger box at all!! Even if the cylinder parts hold up, the sears are just going to crap out quickly.
What! While this is true, its extremely expensive for someone on a tight budget. While putting in a new trigger box is easy, did you forget its not exactly a cheap purchase to make. Replacing a trigger box can range from $100-200 for a new one. Not only is it expensive, but they are mostly out of stock, and rare to find available anywhere. I have been looking for some time now. Even if you decide to upgrade the sears, the only one I have found in stock is a trigger sear. No piston sear anywhere.
Overall, while I have the clone rifle, and have spent hundreds on upgrades, I have thought not once to upgrade to a heavier spring. That is because I know my trigger box just will not handle it. Despite having an upgraded trigger sear from PDI, I know that it would not be a wise choice to stick in a 550 fps spring because I wanted UBER FPS!
I am tired of this shit about FPS! I would rather have a rifle shooting 400 fps, but know my rifle is safe from taking a complete shit on me. Why have a 550 fps rifle, when at any moment, ANY part will crap out on you.
Triggs, plus one. I saw the UTG upgrade kit a while back, but I refrained myself from saying anything about it because I would only be an ass saying how pathetic it is. But now that its being advertised here for someone new to the game, I cannot stand for it. Sorry vamp, but I just do not think its a wise choice at all.
So if any "noobs who think FPS is awesome" are out there, listen up. FPS is not everything, in fact its only a small part to making any rifle effective.
I mean no direct insults at you Vamp. I just feel that your suggestions will only haunt people later in their airsoft career. I would like if you stopped suggesting the UTG upgrade kit, because that'll prevent the people out there from ruining their rifle with simply too much power for the internals. Fuzzy
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 19:49:46 GMT -5
It is common knowledge that the trigger boxes and sears are the first things to fail even in high end models of bar-10s. It is an inherent problem even for rifles shooting below 400fps and it is a design flaw of that type of rifle. And I said replacing the trigger box would be easy I never said it would be cheap or easy to find. The Utg Upgrade kit is cheap and it is also of pretty good quality for the price it is all solid aluminum and has bearings in the spring guide. I was not saying it was the greatest answer to upgrading the cylinder but it is a pretty good start. It also seems that I am the only one here that has put the kit in and it works great. The L96 type aps2 trigger boxes are made very well despite being plastic. The sears are set up well and stand up well against the heavier springs as I have personally tested this. I have not just bought my rifle, I have been using it on the field for three years of heavy use and I have upgraded the spring and started testing it since winter this year. Even with an old and stock trigger box my rifle has still been going strong and the sears are holding up with no signs of damage. Even if they break I have spares. If someone wanted to upgrade their gun I would suggest a zero trigger and then the UTG upgrade kit. Then They could save up for the rest of the cylinder parts and still be shooting at a decently high FPS giving them good range. My rifle experience has been rather unique so I would have to recommend a zero trigger along with the power upgrade, and a PDI hop-up with a TBB then it should make any L96 perform very well. I was not referring to Upgraded AEGs designed for single fire use only. I was talking about normal field AEGs that fire at 380-410fps. And even though FPS isn't everything it is still necessary to achieve greater maximum ranges. I never said a power upgrade would be more accurate, that improvement only comes with installing a new hop-up and a good TBB. And with a tighter bored barrel fps increases. All I was saying is that with a new hop-up and barrel accuracy will go up and the fps will also increase as an after effect from the better air-seal in the hop-up unit and the TBB not allowing as much air moving past the barrel. Yes, I have looked into buying an m14 and starting a DMR project, I have done my fair share of research and was suggesting I might know a thing or two about upgrading one. But all my research I have done since I have not put it into practice is still theoretical and I have decided to not add anything to his M14 thread after reading it.
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Fubar65
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Post by Fubar65 on Jul 20, 2010 19:57:04 GMT -5
It is common knowledge that the trigger boxes and sears are the first things to fail even in high end models of bar-10s. That's a problem right there, a JG Bar-10 or clone isn't high end. A TM VSR-10 is a high end rifle, and when spending the right amount of money and the right amount of parts, it can be an extremely accurate and rewarding sniper rifle.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 20:07:18 GMT -5
It is common knowledge that the trigger boxes and sears are the first things to fail even in high end models of bar-10s. That's a problem right there, a JG Bar-10 or clone isn't high end. A TM VSR-10 is a high end rifle, and when spending the right amount of money and the right amount of parts, it can be an extremely accurate and rewarding sniper rifle. The stock trigger box's sears still break even with a High-End Rifle. In both the clones and High-end brands it is an issue and with any power upgrades the trigger box in either model would need to be replace. I completely understand the value of putting good parts in a rifle. Even with clones putting all the necessary upgrades in them will make them perform amazingly.
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Fubar65
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Post by Fubar65 on Jul 20, 2010 20:12:35 GMT -5
I look at it this way. The Bar-10 is like a Honda Civic, and the VSR-10 is a Ferrari. I mean sure, you can upgrade the crap out of the civic to make it as fast as the Ferrari, but in the end, it is still just a Honda Civic. Why not start from the Ferrari and upgrade from there if you have the money. The price difference between a Bar-10 and VSR-10 isn't astronomical.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 20:22:04 GMT -5
I look at it this way. The Bar-10 is like a Honda Civic, and the VSR-10 is a Ferrari. I mean sure, you can upgrade the crap out of the civic to make it as fast as the Ferrari, but in the end, it is still just a Honda Civic. Why not start from the Ferrari and upgrade from there if you have the money. The price difference between a Bar-10 and VSR-10 isn't astronomical. Well you just hit the nail on the head. I have basically been suggesting that a inexpensive rifle should be paired up with inexpensive upgrades. The High-end models have better looking externals. It just doesn't seem worth it to do extensive upgrading with a clone rifle. That's why I have only bought the UTG upgrade kit and have done all DIY upgrades. UTG has also improved their hop-up units a bit, I bought a replacement from them and it works like a charm. Still I spent less than $250 on my gun and it's upgrades not including my scope.
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Post by triggs on Jul 20, 2010 20:26:24 GMT -5
It is common knowledge that the trigger boxes and sears are the first things to fail even in high end models of bar-10s. It is an inherent problem even for rifles shooting below 400fps and it is a design flaw of that type of rifle. And I said replacing the trigger box would be easy I never said it would be cheap or easy to find. The Utg Upgrade kit is cheap and it is also of pretty good quality for the price it is all solid aluminum and has bearings in the spring guide. I was not saying it was the greatest answer to upgrading the cylinder but it is a pretty good start. It also seems that I am the only one here that has put the kit in and it works great. The L96 type aps2 trigger boxes are made very well despite being plastic. The sears are set up well and stand up well against the heavier springs as I have personally tested this. I have not just bought my rifle, I have been using it on the field for three years of heavy use and I have upgraded the spring and started testing it since winter this year. Even with an old and stock trigger box my rifle has still been going strong and the sears are holding up with no signs of damage. Even if they break I have spares. If someone wanted to upgrade their gun I would suggest a zero trigger and then the UTG upgrade kit. Then They could save up for the rest of the cylinder parts and still be shooting at a decently high FPS giving them good range. My rifle experience has been rather unique so I would have to recommend a zero trigger along with the power upgrade, and a PDI hop-up with a TBB then it should make any L96 perform very well. I was not referring to Upgraded AEGs designed for single fire use only. I was talking about normal field AEGs that fire at 380-410fps. And even though FPS isn't everything it is still necessary to achieve greater maximum ranges. I never said a power upgrade would be more accurate, that improvement only comes with installing a new hop-up and a good TBB. And with a tighter bored barrel fps increases. All I was saying is that with a new hop-up and barrel accuracy will go up and the fps will also increase as an after effect from the better air-seal in the hop-up unit and the TBB not allowing as much air moving past the barrel. Yes, I have looked into buying an m14 and starting a DMR project, I have done my fair share of research and was suggesting I might know a thing or two about upgrading one. But all my research I have done since I have not put it into practice is still theoretical and I have decided to not add anything to his M14 thread after reading it. Seriously? You haven't read a single thing anyone has posted back about your statements? Replacing junk UTG parts with junk UTG parts DOES NOT qualify as an upgrade seriously, it just isn't. Quality? No UTG does not offer quality. Aluminum? Try aluminum alloy, cheap alloy at that. It wears down and breaks just as quickly as the originals. It's not a starter kit for upgrades, nor is it any sort of answer to the problem. I've heard man stories of your "upgrades" and I am happy to say you're in for a rude awakening if you meet even a semi-serious player with a quality sniper rifle, heck a DMR. As fuzzy stated FPS means little in the way of the performance of an airsoft rifle. I would argue that it means nothing to the performance of a rifle. After all Tokyo Marui's can hit the distances of your "Upgraded" L96 stock and they shoot a mere 280FPS. Again you "THINK" you know something, and you "MIGHT" be able to help. This does not infer any sort of concrete experienced knowledge in the area of sniping, AEG work, or general knowledge of the game. Helping is offering well informed statements given to the person. Not "thinking" you have the answer and you "might" being able to help.
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Vampyre (Immortal)
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Post by Vampyre (Immortal) on Jul 20, 2010 20:57:59 GMT -5
Well my rifle has been fielded many times and I have came across good airsoft players and have been able to hold my own. With my upgrades only time will tell if problems will arise. And Aluminum is a very cheap metal and in the small amount of weight of the part it only comes out with only maybe a few cents difference between better alloys. My upgrade has been working at optimum performance so I can't say I know what you are talking about because the kit has only been available for less than a year so there isn't hard tested figures to back up your claim of the performance of the kit. I can admit it isn't the best, I even had to deburr some areas of it but that was a minor issue. So, against all of your knowledge and arrogance my rifle works. I can't see why you have to shoot everything I say down. I am suggesting purely basic upgrades for a clone l96 and If I had the desire I would blast an shit-load of money into a maruzen with laylax and PDI parts, but I'm not going to do it because my rifle that I forced to work the way I wanted performs great. I even said I wouldn't make a suggestion about any of the M14 upgrades because of my inexperience with the rifle and the fact that I don't own one. I admitted my lack of experience and basically apologized for it but you still saw it fit to criticize that. I do have a lack of knowledge in AEGs and promised that I wouldn't post in that forum unless I had some real knowledge to share. So I didn't make a suggestion on that thread but you still keep harping on that fact like an ass-whole. You twist apart everything I say into this disgusting monster to be used against me and I'm sick of it.
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fuzzywolly
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Post by fuzzywolly on Jul 20, 2010 21:01:54 GMT -5
Vamp, sure you did not spend over $250 on your rifle. However, the zero trigger will push the money spent up to $450. His budget is $250.....
I am fricken pissed right now. I do not care if everything is working for you. And sure you have some replacement parts, but he wouldn't have that at the ready. Triggs has this right. Why replace UTG parts with UTG parts? That whole kit costs a mere $35. Thats less than a laylax pison....in fact with the accuracy cup, the laylax pison is twice as much alone as the kit! You get what you pay for.
I speak from experience on this one... The 550 fps spring shit is not needed at all. My rifle has its stock spring in and its worn down big time. Shoots around 400 fps with .2s, about the same speed as some of my friends aegs. Yet, I outrange them because of my tightbore barrel, and high quality hop up chamber, new and better bucking, nubbin, etc. Fps does not mean squat. So why take a rifle that shoots 500 out of the box, stick in some crappy "metal" upgrades, and then stick in a even more powerful spring???
I am glad its working so far for you, but to suggest that to someone new to the game is wrong. Chances are, you have been lucky so far. He could easily get a rifle and those shitty upgrades, and have it crap out on him quickly. Then what is he going to do... Dish out some more cash that he doesn't even have?? If you read the entire post you would realize his budget is $250. He cant afford to have something go wrong unlike you who has spare parts.
Please read and understand before posting. Put yourself in his shoes, and make sure you have a good suggestion for him.
Fuzzy
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