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Post by grif264(Alex) on Jul 3, 2010 15:51:48 GMT -5
Grif, that was a very irresponsible thing to post. Especially AFTER being informed that such a device it illegal to produce, possess and use. Further, I have personally responded to a call where a 14 y/o boy suffered 3rd degree burns to his hand because of a BB Grenade made EXACTLY like that. I was forced to arrest his father for contributing to the delinquency of a minor, child endangerment, illegal possession of an explosive device, illegal production of an explosive device and detonating an explosive device inside city limits. The child was removed from the home and the father received 24 months in jail and 5 years probation. He now has a felony on his record and, more importantly, has scarred his child for life. Admins and Moderators, if I may, I suggest a modification to the MiA rules banning such devices from use on MiA fields and events based on illegality, liability and, most importantly, safety concerns. These things have the potential to be more dangerous than not wearing full-seal eye-pro. Respectfully, What did griff post? Was it a way to make these ineffective grenades more effective? I'm looking for a cheap effective BB grenade, what was the nature of the one this man created that produced 3rd degree burns? I do assure you, if this was some larger variant I would like to steer clear of it. I'm looking for the smallest variant necessary to effectively propel small bits of corn, peas, or .12 gram bbs. Edited for grammar. I posted a video of a tutorial on what they are and how to make them on Youtube.
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Post by Reaper6 on Jul 3, 2010 15:55:14 GMT -5
Griff: Brother, I wasn't offended. No worries.
silentdeath124: You may view it as steep, but the guy actually got off easy. He broke not only local and state laws, but federal law as well. Worse still, he contributed to the injury of his son.
Agouti: Griff posted a how-to video that was on youtube. Unfortunately, the "cheap effective bb grenade" doesn't exist. At least, not legally. If you use fireworks to construct a BB grenade, you are creating an improvised explosive device and are in violation of federal law (3 of them if memory serves).
Now, people, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be a hard-ass. Having seen the very real consequences that these things can do, I am concerned with the safety of anyone who uses them. In my capacity as a Law Enforcement Officer, it is my duty to uphold the laws of the land. Further, as the President of the American Airsoft Association, it is my responsibility to speak out about things that could be detrimental to our sport and its players.
Respectfully,
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Post by a1 (Babez) on Jul 3, 2010 17:54:55 GMT -5
M-80's and such large "cherry bomb" firecrackers are illegal in Michigan anyway, so making an Easter egg grenade more "effective" is pointless and stupid. Firecrackers (the little pink or blue ones that go "pop") are Illegal: EXAMPLES OF ILLEGAL FIREWORKS/EXPLOSIVES IN MICHIGAN (THIS LIST IS NOT ALL-INCLUSIVE):
· Cherry Bomb - A small red sphere approximately 1" in diameter. · Comet (or Mine) - A cylinder containing a star and attached to a wooden base. Upon ignition, the star is thrust 50-100 feet in the air and continues to glow as it falls to the ground. · Firecracker - A small noisemaking cylinder up to 1.5" in length, often strung together with a fuse. · M-80 - Up to 2" in length, usually a red cylinder with a fuse coming out the side. This is not a firework; it is a federally banned explosive. · Bottle Rockets - A cylinder, frequently topped by a cone to stabilize its flight, attached to a long stick. · Roman Candles - A 6-12" tube containing alternating layers of compacted black powder that shoots single stars out of the top when lighted. · Silver Salute (M-100) - A silver cylinder with a fuse coming out of the side containing large quantities of flash powder. This is not a firework; it is a federally banned explosive. · M-250 and M-1000 (quarter-stick) - Large versions of the M-80 and M-100 that have extremely high risk factors for crippling and disfiguring injuries. This is not a firework; it is a federally banned explosive. · Torch - A 6-12" tube filled with colored material and ending in a handle. When ignited, streams of colors come out of the top of the tube. · Wheel-type Device - A firework that spins or twirls is a "wheel" and thus is neither a "cylindrical fountain" nor a "cone fountain." ~Taken from Michigan.gov So, pretty much anything that goes "boom" or "bang" are illegal. Tornado grenades, anyone?
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Post by Agouti on Jul 3, 2010 20:54:02 GMT -5
Tornado grenades are not effective. I like the idea of powder. Are there any good powder grenades?
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Post by Thor on Jul 3, 2010 21:38:28 GMT -5
Powder sucks and is a pain in the ass to get off of nylon gear.
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Post by Agouti on Jul 3, 2010 23:17:40 GMT -5
Here's the options: Tornado doesn't work. Powder is dirty, and now we have Maj. ATF breathing down our necks. No grenades for now, eh? I heard madbull has one, and it's softer and lighter, but takes a while to reload. Also, all of those holes make me nervous. I don't know why, but I want to cringe. All those holes, it just weirds me out.
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Post by Reaper6 on Jul 4, 2010 0:46:38 GMT -5
Quite frankly, I've had great success with my Tornadoes. Of course, I do tend to use them in CQB environs more than in an outdoor setting, where they are marginally less effective. That, and unlike many of it's critics, I don't use .20 g BBs in them. The lighter, the better when it comes to the Tornado Grenade.
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Cabbage
New Member
"Raid Big Game, for when roaches are the least of your worries."
Posts: 91
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Post by Cabbage on Jul 4, 2010 1:15:39 GMT -5
Griff: Brother, I wasn't offended. No worries. silentdeath124: You may view it as steep, but the guy actually got off easy. He broke not only local and state laws, but federal law as well. Worse still, he contributed to the injury of his son. Agouti: Griff posted a how-to video that was on youtube. Unfortunately, the "cheap effective bb grenade" doesn't exist. At least, not legally. If you use fireworks to construct a BB grenade, you are creating an improvised explosive device and are in violation of federal law ( 3 of them if memory serves). Now, people, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be a hard-ass. Having seen the very real consequences that these things can do, I am concerned with the safety of anyone who uses them. In my capacity as a Law Enforcement Officer, it is my duty to uphold the laws of the land. Further, as the President of the American Airsoft Association, it is my responsibility to speak out about things that could be detrimental to our sport and its players. Respectfully, You do have a good point there. He was responsible for HIS kid.
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Post by Agouti on Jul 4, 2010 23:10:28 GMT -5
One day somebody will invent a really good one. There's a market for it, and it's not being properly catered to. www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBDON4T7Vdc&feature=digestThe Fps is at most 137 with a .20 gram bb. That's .17 Joules. With a .12 gram you're getting 177, again, this is as it's absolute fastest, Is it possible to increase the fps to say 250-300 with a tornado grenade using .20 gram bbs? I would be very interested in such a device.
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Post by Reaper6 on Jul 5, 2010 15:46:41 GMT -5
No, it's not possible.
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Post by Knief on Jul 5, 2010 16:19:51 GMT -5
Remember Agouti, a 250-300 FPS bb without hop up has a range of at least 50 feet, if not more. Your standard M67 hand grenade has a fatality radius of 5 meters, or about 16 feet (if Wikipedia can be trusted). You just don't need your bbs to go that far, and if they did, it wouldn't exactly be realistic.
The other issue is how much pain do you want to cause on your target? Say your grenade puts out 100 bbs every pop, and maybe 25-30 hit your target. If those bbs are going at 150 FPS, it's no big deal. But taking 25-30 bbs at 300 FPS sucks. Anybody who's been overkilled by a stock gun knows that.
Keeping grenades at a lower FPS is both safe and more realistic. It's also not really the problem behind engineering them. Most grenades suffer from spread problems, rather than velocity problems. They get buried in brush and just can't put out enough bbs to hit enough people.
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Post by Agouti on Jul 5, 2010 18:09:14 GMT -5
My concern is feeling. If a grenade goes off and you're within radius, are people expected to just call out, or do they have to get hit with a bb? If we go just by radius, we could use a cap device, which would create an audible pop, be entirely legal, and have no shrapnel. (And also be much cheaper.) If shrapnel is necessary, I'd like to see that with an exceptionally heavy bb to keep the joules but limit the range. To me feeling is a big part, whether it's a light tap or a mild sting, because if you definitely feel it, you know you're out. I'm just not convinced the tornado grenade is putting out enough power. I'd like to stand next to it when it goes off. Has anyone here tried that?
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Post by Reaper6 on Jul 5, 2010 20:30:03 GMT -5
I have, and you can feel it. You can also hear it. I think you're just nit-piking the issue. It's one of those "don't knock it till you try it" situations.
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Post by Agouti on Jul 5, 2010 22:06:07 GMT -5
At $100 for a grenade(albeit reusable), you bet I'm gonna nitpick it. However, I'm interested in standing next to one myself. I'll see if any of the major games, or the local airsoft place has them to try. I'll report back here and give a full write up of my experience as soon as I do.
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Post by Relarz on Jul 6, 2010 0:03:24 GMT -5
At $100 for a grenade(albeit reusable), you bet I'm gonna nitpick it. However, I'm interested in standing next to one myself. I'll see if any of the major games, or the local airsoft place has them to try. I'll report back here and give a full write up of my experience as soon as I do. Exactly. I've seen more duds than I have working tornadoes thrown at me. I've also seen more angry and depressed airsofters when they loose said grenades, or they break because those little pieces of shit just cant hack it.
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