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Post by Munin on May 20, 2008 10:10:56 GMT -5
OK, since people seem to be hell-bent on discussing it, let's just get it out and put it all in one place.
Let me preface this discussion with the statement that in the case of insurance that stipulates the exclusion of minors NOTHING that minors say to try to prove how mature they are is going to matter. No event organizer in their right mind is going to open themselves up to the liability involved there.
Furthermore, waivers are largely useless. Parental consent is useless. Having a legal guardian present is useless. In the eyes of the law, and most importantly in civil court, these things are simply minor speedbumps between an accident and the event organizer losing everything to a lawsuit. Our society is incredibly litigious, and even if you know you did something dumb on the field that resulted in an injury, your parents have to consider the fact that suing the organizer may be the only way they can recoup the medical costs you incur.
So if an organizer says that an 18+ age limit is a condition of their insurance, the minors on this board would do best by shutting the fuck up about it. Period.
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Post by Munin on May 20, 2008 10:11:06 GMT -5
Now, to continue the discussion from the previous thread: Devil Dog wrote: "What really bothers me is the arrogance of those who are against change. People tend to forget where they came from. A lot of the people that are against change are the ones who were only 18 a few years ago. In order for any change to be effective, it needs to be aimed at the youth. To make are sport more acceptable to the masses, we need to educate (or train) the next generation of players. The current generation of players are already set in their ways and are more resistant to the change."
DevilDog - it's not that people are resistant to change. It's they actively desire a change, and a change for the better. For the past several years, the majority of events have been 14+ age limit. At the same time, there have been virtually no true MilSim events (though there have been a few scenario games that have come close). That was a change from the previous atmosphere (where there were few events in-state, they were all 18+, and the vast majority of them were MilSim). What a number of people are advocating is a return to having MilSim events in Michigan.
Many people (both players and event organizers) have observed that dropping the age limit to 14+ has resulted in a) a profusion of players on the field (though I blame the cheap Chinese clones for this) and b) a more "paintsoft" aspect to the games. It is a natural reaction to suspect that setting an 18+ age limit might solve some of the issues that crop up in "paintsoft" games.
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Post by DevilDog on May 21, 2008 10:31:07 GMT -5
I'm all for MilSim.. But why is it only targeted at the 18+ crowd? I understand that you have to be 18 to enlist in the military (been there, done that).
Sure, lots of kids get airsoft replicas just because they want to look kewl. But there are a bunch out there that want to have the MilSim experience. Why should they be excluded?
I realize that there have been a shitload more events in Michigan than there were 6 or 7 years ago. That's awesome! I'm glad this state is finally joining the rest of the Union and finally hosting some events.
I know all about the insurance issue. I had it for the two events I hosted up here. I was able to include minors (14+) in that policy for only 20 or so dollars more. Granted, that was a few years ago so I'm sure the price has gone up.
I checked with my attorney on the whole waiver thing. You are right Munin. Waivers are just a speed bump, but they are a necessary one. The language of the wavier has to be worded strong enough to even stand a small chance of being upheld. If you don't have one, you are opening yourself up to lots of litigation that you cannot win.
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Post by Tex on May 21, 2008 10:45:23 GMT -5
Only about 5% of people under 18 want to play at a Mil Sim event. And only about 50% of them are mature enough to participate, if that.
Those individuals may contact the event host and ask for special consideration. If they do so in a mature manner and are known to be an individual who might be worthy of such, than I don't see why a host would turn them down.
For instance, I have offered some of the younger players the change to be role players at the 18+ event. A chance to prove themselves and still participate in it. I have no doubt in my mind that if they show maturity throughout the day that I would ask them to participate in the night game, etc.
All this Age stuff, is just little kids whining about it. And these are the ones who do not belong at the 18+. I've had 4 people PM me who are all under 18, and will likely get the chance to play since they handled it in a very appropriate way. However, the people complaining like, well, little kids, will have no chance at all.
Honestly, it's just like all the new kids who choose to be a sniper when they first start. It's slower, not as exciting, and requires patience and maturity. How many of those have stopped and either picked up and AEG and hicap, or quit all together? At least 90%. They may *think* they want to enjoy a Mil Sim event, but chances are they will get bored, and mess around. That, is why I have made the event 18+.
And lastly, as for being arrogant and against change? You're coming back to these forums after a rather long break and all of a sudden throwing that out. Where in fact, you don't know what airsoft has become. Filled with paintsoft, young kids, clones, bad attitudes, and the worst, cheaters. Having an 18+ Mil Sim, or just an 18+ or just a Mil Sim event, is[/i] change.
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Post by DevilDog on May 21, 2008 11:04:27 GMT -5
Only about 5% of people under 18 want to play at a Mil Sim event. And only about 50% of them are mature enough to participate, if that. is[/i] change.[/quote] Can you provide me a source for your numbers or is this a best guess? Not that I disagree with you, but I would like to know your source. And lastly, as for being arrogant and against change? You're coming back to these forums after a rather long break and all of a sudden throwing that out. Where in fact, you don't know what airsoft has become. Filled with paintsoft, young kids, clones, bad attitudes, and the worst, cheaters. Having an 18+ Mil Sim, or just an 18+ or just a Mil Sim event, . is[/i] change.[/quote] Just because I haven't been around the MiA forum for a while doesn't mean I haven't been around airsoft in that long. Please don't try and read my mind. Cheaters have alsways been in this sport and it's not always the "kids" doing it. I can recall some events that "adults" were doing the cheating. Honor isn't age specific. I know about the clones, paintsoft, young kids and bad attitudes. They were there before. So, really what has changed? The date on the calendar and the faces on the board. It's good to see the change that is occuring. Forward progression is good.
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Post by Jumprefusal on May 21, 2008 11:14:27 GMT -5
I have to agree with Tex, but not to the severity he describes. There are plenty of youngins that would eat up the milsim aspect and do just fine, but how do you single them out? Special invite?
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Post by Tex on May 21, 2008 11:15:08 GMT -5
Now you're just being flat out rude. 65% of statistics are made up on the spot, and exaggeration is a tool used to get your point across.
You don't care about change/ the sport, you care about your opinion.
"I know about the clones, paintsoft, young kids and bad attitudes. They were there before. So, really what has changed?"
They were never here in this high of a number. They have ridiculously exploded through the roof, I can safely say that makes up half the individuals who attend events. Want proof for that? How about all the events I've helped run and attended the past 2 years?
I would never try to run a 14+ Mil Sim event because all it takes is a small handful of people to ruin it for the rest. And the chances of that are just too high if you let the younger kids come without screening them. That's basically what an 18+ event is, 18+, come on in, 14-17, you're getting screened before the host makes an exception. And then again, I'll honestly turn away a few people older than 18, based on their reputations for immaturity and poor sportsmanship, actually, I have already barred a team from my event for those specific reasons, all 18+.
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Post by Canto on May 21, 2008 11:25:36 GMT -5
I tend to be somewhat torn on this issue. I'm all for the inclusion of minors but against immaturity. But the question is where do we as event organizations draw the line? The whole area is a giant gray area to me... As DevilDog said, "To make are sport more acceptable to the masses, we need to educate (or train) the next generation of players. The current generation of players are already set in their ways and are more resistant to the change." As Tex said, "Filled with paintsoft, young kids, clones, bad attitudes, and the worst, cheaters. Having an 18+ Mil Sim, or just an 18+ or just a Mil Sim event, is change." I agree and disagree with both statements... But DevilDog, Tex is correct in saying airsoft events have changed a lot since you were last on... I remember you were actually my first company sale, a used CA870, that was early 2005 and I believe that was the last time you and I spoke. The general trend has been away from milsim and more to general style airsoft events without strict rules of engagement, etc. This is both good and bad. Good in the aspect of attracting more and new players, bad in the aspect it turns off more experienced players. I do find this "crusade" here on MiA to be a grassroots way of trying to reform the sport and make airsoft better for all quite admirable. I have been playing for almost four years (not as long as others, but long enough to have gained respect and friends throughout the state as both a player and company) and I have seen a ton of change since I first started. I suppose my point is, everyone does need to start somewhere (This is where myself and Tex used to butt-heads a lot), whether it's with a spring pistol, LPEG, clone, or a Classic Army. But at the same time, I do see an influx of new players who honestly know nothing about what they are about to partake in and it does irritate me. It's not the clones or the fact they are younger players that bug me it's a bad attitude of all players involved on both sides of the issue on the battlefield... When I see kids not calling hits I personally walk over there and find out what's going on. When I see older players 20+ not calling hits I'm just plain pissed. Arguing, bickering, and infighting; what is this going to accomplish at events at on the boards? "Oh, look at that shithead little kid with a Cyma AK" "Oh, look at that old fuck with that CA, he looks like my grandpa..." I honestly fail to see the difference here. Both are pointless, both are unproductive. Because I could really give two-shits less how old someone is as long as they conduct themselves accordingly. I've had issues at events with older players and well as young ones. Because if I ever see another incident like what happened to CJWhiteWolf at Operation: Starlight, I'm going to personally take an interest in seeing him suffer. I have yet to honestly hear a major complaint about Team FLAK. Our members range in age from 14 to 23. But we will still keep to our diplomatic protocols in regards to age range. Our members will ask to be allowed to attend, not bitch on the boards about it. I can almost guarantee that they would be allowed in to some (if not most) 18+ events. It's all about personal experience and maturity.,, I think everyone needs to keep an open mind and be open to suggestions. It is the final call of the event hosting party in regards to age requirements. In conclusion, I suppose I should say this to all parties involved: Minors - Act mature, this is a time of which you do not act your age. You act older, no exceptions. Adults - Remember your own roots and beginnings. Event Hosters - Do what you feel is best for you field, but keep the sport in mind. Cheaters - Don't bother coming to events... To All of MiA - Respect yourselves, other players, field operators, other teams, the mods, and above all else the sport.
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Post by DevilDog on May 21, 2008 12:05:01 GMT -5
Well said CantoXII...
Big Texas... Rude? Just asking for facts. I do understand that statistics are made up on the spot, but if not written down the numbers can change. It's just common human nature, and memory problems, that can skew the numbers. I Don't care about change or the sport just my own opinion? I've been trying to change this sport since I started playing over 6 years ago. Take an look at your own intrinsic values and make then ask yourself the same questions. My opinions are that, opinions. I've made suggestion as have you. I have the right to voice my opinion, as do you. If my opinion contradicts yours, great. I don't want to live in a world that everyone shares the same ideas. I didn't attack you in any way, I just asked for facts to substantiate your claims. Who went on the defensive after I asked some questions and voice my opinion?
JR.. I agree. Trying to single them out would be the hard part. It's almost impossible. I guess you can equate it to people that should never have been parents. There's no test or course you need to take to raise a kid. The same holds true with the minors in airsoft.
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Post by Hollow on May 21, 2008 17:28:16 GMT -5
Personally, I really don't think this should be an issue.
It is the even holders game, they can invite whoever they want. They are not violating anyone's rights if they don't want minors on their property. Also, if they want to invite a mature minor, so be it. You cannot force someone to change to their set rules accommodate your needs.
I am a minor. I have PMed Tex about the even he is holding, politely. He told me that I can work as a character in his game. I respect that because it is his event, it was his decision and a way to test me for maturity. This is perfectly fine with me, if you are mature enough to accept the rules you are mature enough to play.
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Post by Mosin on May 21, 2008 17:46:29 GMT -5
I don't know.. I guess with me being 17 years of age I have to run into this stuff sometimes. But I suppose with me helping coordinate/run/attend almost every event since the day I joined MiA (I think I've maybe missed 3 events in the last year.. And it was choice and personal taste for the certain field for 2 out of the three times).
I've seen the business side of it, I've seen the adult's point of view (Hanging out with guys 21+ for at least 75% of my time at an event helps me there) and hearing the young guns complaints and seeing their method of play also helps me to be a neutral party in this.
let me give you a breif scenario between the average group of say.. 4 people, all over the age of 18.. Maybe 2 are a bit newer at it, but the other two are regular GI Plastic Throwers.
The guys move up, one pulls out a pair of bi-nocs.. Scouts the area, motions in hand signals of what he sees to nearby friends. Through silence, they coordinate a proper method of attack, with the guy toting that SAW giving suppressing fire, while the other 3 move in a file formation to the nearby fence, then such throwing a smoke grenade for the backman to move up, and invading the city together.
Now, let's try to imagine a group of 14 year olds, geared out in Van's sneakers, blue jeans, and their dad's old hunting shirt.
They move into view of the city, because of their loud movement and failure of teamwork to get to said location, they are spotted, and fired upon. They crowd behind the log walls surrounding, only to be shot out one by one through the cracks, they all walk away pissed.
Does this story sound farfetched to you? Or sound like I'm making this up? Well let me assure you, this is exactly what I saw at the SFOD field, and for those of you there at their last engagement, you probably might have seen this too. Albeit this could have been a rare scenario, or just something out of the norm, but it seems like everytime I roll with Knief, or Tex, or anyone on this forum over the age of 18.. They have no problems when I say "Hey, we rush on three" before a mass attack. Now.. I've tried getting younger kids to do that, and at most I got them to stand up behind the bunker and spray wildly at the base, only to duck back down.
Older age = more maturity.. This is something we can generally agree on. More maturity = more cojones to hit the front line and actually do something.. And honestly, when you see something as nicely coordinated as the first scenario, you can't help but get an adreniline rush and want to join in. Getting shot is the last thing that is in your head at that time.
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Post by SWAT A4 on May 23, 2008 18:14:26 GMT -5
This topic is like politics. Everyone has a strong opinion.
Our team, and I have been commended by people from around the Midwest for our honor and teamwork on the field. As a team, we are on the "18+" border, and it makes it really though. My teammates are my "brothers" on and off of the field, and when they can't go to an event because of an age limit, then I, as well as the other older guys will not leave one behind.
Our team has worked with police agencies, to help them train, as well as raise money for them, and we are on a list to help the Army cadets train, yet some of my teammates are not allowed to play at a milsim event?
We are usually granted special rights to play, and do not run into this problem often, but I am not for 18+ age limits.
I am all for "if you are mature, you can play" However we all know that's not something we can measure, so we end up with the 18 and older age limits.
I was more mature at the age of 13, than some of these older guys out on the field. "Age does not determine maturity" does not only stand true for the younger kids, unfortunately I have seen some stupid adults on the field too.
I understand, and will abide by the age limits, however I cannot say I support them. I'm glad it's not a set rule. A lot of people use the excuse of 18+, because you have to be 18+ to own the gun. Legally, in the state of IL, you only have to be 18 to own one. So Why is the age limit 18?
I have 2 teammates that are 17 with army contracts, but according to these airsoft age limits, they can't participate in a milsim event? Hehe. That's silly.
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Post by Mosin on May 23, 2008 18:25:19 GMT -5
Again.. You and your team mates are special exceptions. Allowing the age limit to be lowered means that all groups can participate. I'd say out of the age group of 14-17.. Maybe 80% are immature, and would not act as needed to be good to go at an event. I too am 17, and I've got literally in the other room a US Navy Contract. Which makes me another special exception to the rule.
What field owners are basicly trying to do here is weed out the masses, leaving it with only the serious airsofters. I personally know kids under the age of 18 that I can vouch for, and say that they are serious sams, and that they would act appropriately at all times. However.. A field owner doesn't know everyone in the world, and can't make exceptions for johnny but not for timmy. So they have to cut it at the age limit, only hoping that with more years of age, you have more experience on the field.
Sorry that it's how it's gotta be. But that's just how it is.. People can complain and argue about it. But enforcing an 18+ age limit with special exceptions is really the best way to say that you've ran a successful event, in my opinion.
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Post by SWAT A4 on May 23, 2008 18:32:21 GMT -5
No explanation or apology needed to anyone here, IMO. That's just how things run. Have to be 16 for a drivers license. I can't agree with that either, some people should never drive. I have nothing else to say. I just like when field owners/event organizers/participants are understanding to those who can earn respect and deserve to play in some of these events. I have nothing against those under 18, or those over 18. I have friends on the field that are easily in their 40's, and it's not awkward, but if I was hanging out with them other places, would be a little bit strange.... On the field, the only "age" there is, IMHO, is "maturity." I look at everyones age, by how they act.
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Post by Mosin on May 23, 2008 18:34:41 GMT -5
Heh.. I've got some pretty old airsoft friends myself, but reguardless of that.. I see it the same way. I'm glad that event hosters are willing to level with the players and I'm sure if the person was 17.. and had numerous people vouch for them.. There'd be no reason why the field owner would say no.
Unless it was an insurance thing.
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